Market Conditions: Can the Loop Become a Cool Residential Neighborhood?
The pandemic is bringing a lot of work/life changes, including work-from-home.
Downtown Chicago, especially the Loop, has historically been dominated by commercial office buildings and retail, but over the past 30 years there’s been a push to move residential into the neighborhood.
In the 1990s, old commercial buildings were converted into condos or apartments, but according to Crain’s, with all the empty commercial space thanks to the pandemic, that trend could be accelerating.
Leading the return in the 1990s and early 2000s were affluent empty nesters looking to live near arts institutions and restaurants. Converted former office buildings along Michigan Avenue, including the former homes of Montgomery Ward, Encyclopedia Brittanica and Crane Plumbing, accommodated them, and featured park and lake views.
Now it’s often younger adults who want to live downtown, Edwards says. “They don’t want to own a car or they don’t want to use the car,” he says. “They want to walk to work, walk to dinner.”
Can downtown finally morph into a cool, hip residential neighborhood?
And if so, will condos see a renaissance in some of the conversions?
In 2003-2008 numerous downtown buildings were converted into condos, including The Metropolis at 8 W. Monroe.
Here’s more about the building from the condo association website:
Metropolis Condominiums is located in a building known as the North American Building that was built in 1912 and designed by Holabird and Roche Architects.
The terracotta details and massive scale make this building a fine example of neo-gothic architecture, giving the impression of a fifteenth century cathedral standing as the gateway between Chicago’s historic retail and financial districts. Original elaborate ornamentation, including four foot terracotta owls perched atop the building, decorate the exterior.
The building saw a lot of investor purchases during the housing boom, and a lot of foreclosures.
But what’s happening now?
This 16th floor corner unit with city and lake views came on the market in June 2021.
The listing says this is the largest floor plan in the building at 1300 square feet.
It has 12 foot ceilings and large windows, including in both bedrooms.
The primary suite has 2 closets and an en suite bathroom with a soaking tub and separate shower.
The kitchen has wood cabinets, granite counter tops and backsplash and stainless steel appliances. It has a breakfast bar with seating for 2.
The main living space has hardwood floors and the bedrooms have carpet.
The unit has the features buyers look for including central air, washer/dryer in the unit and valet garage parking is available in the building for $13,000.
The building has a doorman, exercise room, party room and shared terrace with grills.
Originally listed in June 2021 for $349,000, it has been reduced $4,000 to $345,000.
It’s in the middle of everything going on in the Loop and Millennium and Grant Parks and is a rare building that has attached parking.
Is it time to buy again in the Loop?
Sima Shah at Maroon Realty has the listing. It is agent-owned. See the pictures here.
Unit #1604: 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, 1300 square feet
- Sold in June 2006 for $473,000 (included the parking)
- Lis pendens foreclosure filed in October 2009
- Bank owned in May 2011
- Sold in April 2012 for $212,500 (included the parking)
- Originally listed in June 2021 for $349,000
- Reduced
- Currently listed at $345,000 (plus $13,000 for valet garage parking)
- Assessments of $836 a month (includes heat, a/c, gas, doorman, exterior maintenance, exercise room, scavenger and Internet)
- Taxes of $7365
- Central Air
- Washer/dryer in the unit
- Bedroom #1: 11×14
- Bedroom #2: 9×12
- Living/dining room combo: 14×21
- Kitchen: 8×9
“It’s in the middle of everything going on in the Loop”
What going on in the Loop these days?
LOL at 1300sf
Gotta love the 2012 sales pitch. Wonder if its still majority investment?
Depressing space, especially w/ a $3k/mo nut
This is dead in the water until it hits <$275 w/ parking
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8-W-Monroe-St-APT-1204-Chicago-IL-60603/119092813_zpid/
Cheaper to rent and save the DP
“Depressing space, especially w/ a $3k/mo nut”
People have no vision. Yeah, that’s why interior decorators have a job.
Paint, new light fixtures, shiplap, new tile and bathroom vanities can do wonders. Imagine that?
https://www.urbanrealestate.com/property/8-W-Monroe-Unit-400-Chicago-IL-60603-6W3ojaKskSPu.html
Paint is really your friend when creating a home. It’s not that expensive. Also, window treatments. Shades and/or curtains do wonders.
This corner unit could be so amazing and cool with just a little bit of help from a decorator.
$2650 is cheap for a 2/2 rental. That should be snapped up.
Most rentals are more expensive than buying these days on a monthly nut basis.
Also, is this one of the north side units? They seem to have different ceiling heights and layouts than those on the south side of the building.
“What going on in the Loop these days?”
That’s the point. When you have thousands moving in, restaurants, retail, bars usually follow.
Could the Loop become the next cool, hip neighborhood?
I feel that it needs more restaurants if it’s going to get there.
Nicer than most of the other converted office buildings. Still, converted office buildings rarely offer decent floorplans that I would be willing to buy
“Is it time to buy again in the Loop?”
Please buy in the Loop, I would like my Loop property to increase in value.
Why didn’t they push the range back when they took the pix? Even if there is a reason for it to be closer to the wall most of the time, it looks bad–as does the too small fridge. Also should squeeze in cabinets bt the range and the window wall.
Having lived in the Loop for 4 years in the nicest building: It was awesome minus the thugs and homeless CRAZIES.
I think our garage at the Legacy had luxury cars stolen from it 4-5 times while I lived there. (And this is a private key fob garage with cameras all over). That didn’t bother me as much as walking by murder crime scenes / the grocery store across the street being peppered with stray bullets.
“That’s the point. When you have thousands moving in, restaurants, retail, bars usually follow.“
That’s backwards, no? Restaurants usually are a precursor to a hood becoming hip. (Panda Express excluded)
“Could the Loop become the next cool, hip neighborhood?“
Anything’s possible. I wouldn’t bet on it.
“I feel that it needs more restaurants if it’s going to get there.”
Needs more than that – cheap rents are first.
“ That’s the point. When you have thousands moving in, restaurants, retail, bars usually follow.”
You stated that there “everything going on in the loop”
Now you’re talking what might happen in the future?
“ People have no vision. Yeah, that’s why interior decorators have a job.
Paint, new light fixtures, shiplap, new tile and bathroom vanities can do wonders. Imagine that?
https://www.urbanrealestate.com/property/8-W-Monroe-Unit-400-Chicago-IL-60603-6W3ojaKskSPu.html
Paint is really your friend when creating a home. It’s not that expensive. Also, window treatments. Shades and/or curtains do wonders.
This corner unit could be so amazing and cool with just a little bit of help from a decorator.”
That property is $75k less that the subject property and as you, note it’s updated. You’re comparing apples and oranges
Putting $50k into the subject property isn’t going to make it a $400k property
“Putting $50k into the subject property isn’t going to make it a $400k property”
Again, hiring a decorator is your friend. The two units are nearly identical except Unit 400 painted, put in some nice tile, new vanities (left the shower- which should have been replaced.)
Paint is your friend. And it doesn’t cost $50,000.
Lol.
“Needs more than that – cheap rents are first.”
Neither Fulton Market or the West Loop have had “cheap rents” for 20 years. And it’s boomed.
The Loop has all the ingredients. Historic buildings. Great location. Entertainment. But it needs more local restaurants, cafes. It still needs more life so you have to put it on the street level somewhere other than State Street.
“I think our garage at the Legacy had luxury cars stolen from it 4-5 times while I lived there. (And this is a private key fob garage with cameras all over). That didn’t bother me as much as walking by murder crime scenes / the grocery store across the street being peppered with stray bullets.”
Well- you wouldn’t want to live in Wicker Park or Bucktown where car jackings are happening every weekend then AnonIDGAF. Nor Fulton Market where that shoot-out just took place in daylight where 5 people were shot. Nor in Lakeview where the police just put out a mugging warning.
Neighborhoods change. I’m assuming you left Chicago and now live somewhere else? When did you move?
People who come on this blog to trash Chicago when their own city/state has just as many problems are sad.
“That’s backwards, no? Restaurants usually are a precursor to a hood becoming hip. (Panda Express excluded)”
That’s why I said it needs restaurants.
They did just open a great food hall that actually is open on the weekends. Don’t know when the one in the Willis Tower will open (or did it?) But it needs more than that.
“Well- you wouldn’t want to live in Wicker Park or Bucktown where car jackings are happening every weekend then AnonIDGAF. Nor Fulton Market where that shoot-out just took place in daylight where 5 people were shot. Nor in Lakeview where the police just put out a mugging warning.”
and
“People who come on this blog to trash Chicago . . . are sad.”
Sabrina, please don’t be so hard on yourself.
Anyways, I’ve been here all week and, just like the two weeks spent here over the summer, I’m really not seeing what all the doom and gloom is about. I’m not roaming the streets in the middle of the night, so I haven’t felt imperiled. Had to throw a couple of gentle elbows during the Turkey Trot so my kid wouldn’t get trampled, but that’s to be expected anywhere.
“I’m not roaming the streets in the middle of the night, so I haven’t felt imperiled.”
This is good anonny.
There is a mugging team that has mugged 20 people in the last 7 to 10 days in Old Town and Lakeview. Mostly 11:00 pm until 4:00 am.
Otherwise, you are correct about it not feeling very dooming. Lots of tourists in town for Thanksgiving. The parade was back. Marching bands. People at Christkindlmarket.
I actually LIVE in Chicago so I am realistic about what is happening here with crime right now. I have changed my behavior. My husband and kids have changed their behavior. That’s all in response to the muggings, the shootings, the thefts at the stores on the Mag Mile.
Those who come on this site to simply trash it and say it’s doomed aren’t the same thing as those who are here to realistically discussing the carjackings that ARE going on in Wicker Park and Bucktown. We can only take so much as residents. We have all been personally impacted. It’s not simply reading about it in the news or seeing a segment about it on WGN.
But I know that every big city in America is seeing this uptick in various crimes. Clearly a holdover from the pandemic.
When will it improve? What can the cities do to slow it or end it?
Also, the Old Town/Lakeview muggers made one couple lay on the pavement while they searched their pockets at gunpoint.
Was this because they told the muggers they didn’t have anything? (money, phone etc.) Were they out walking their dog with nothing in their pockets?
This scares me as I’ve been leaving my bag and phone at home whenever going out, but now I’m thinking it might be better to have something to give the muggers. If you have a purse or bag, you can just hand it to them as they’re not going to wait around to see if there is anything in it. I can still leave the phone at home but just hand over the bag with some paltry cash in it.
“Can downtown finally morph into a cool, hip residential neighborhood?”
no, rents are too high… only places that can afford rent are lame chains
spent some time two weeks ago in the Loop and holy shit I couldn’t believe how dead it was, probably half the stores are closed and there were very few people around except for the transients. You couldn’t pay me to live in that neighborhood.
re: muggings
This is not something you should have to worry about living in one of the nicest areas of an allegedly top tier city. You people need to hold your elected officials accountable and make them actually stop the out of control crime. I can’t believe you’re mulling over whether or not to carry a purse and phone with you… wtf? Clown world…
“But I know that every big city in America is seeing this uptick in various crimes. Clearly a holdover from the pandemic.”
No, this is *equity*.
Enjoy!
“But I know that every big city in America is seeing this uptick in various crimes. Clearly a holdover from the pandemic.”
LOL Clearly
Is there anything COVID can’t do?
The uptick is occurring in areas you frequent Vs it being confined to poor and minority areas. Where because it affects those you don’t care about wasn’t a problem.
“ You people need to hold your elected officials accountable and make them actually stop the out of control crime.”
LOL talk about making heads explode
“The uptick is occurring in areas you frequent Vs it being confined to poor and minority areas. Where because it affects those you don’t care about wasn’t a problem.”
Huh?
Crime has occurred citywide. A 31-year old mother and her 14 year old son were just killed in a tragic act on the South Side. It doesn’t matter where you are.
But you have no clue JohnnyU. It’s not your community. You don’t live in Chicago, and haven’t for decades. So, yeah, the increase in crime is impacting everyone who lives here. There’s not a neighborhood it isn’t touching.
Same with other big cities. NY, DC, SF, LA are all seeing it. The muggings, the shootings, the shoplifting or looting, the burglaries. The carjackings.
And, yeah, it has everything to do with the pandemic. It’s obviously not a coincidence that crime has suddenly exploded, nationwide, as we’re in the midst of a pandemic (which is STILL ongoing by the way.)
Another bad wave is here. The Netherlands just put restrictions on indoor dining and bars to try and contain their horrible outbreak. People need to stay home over the next 8 weeks. Michigan is already in a really bad outbreak. The holidays are going to make it worse.
“No, this is *equity*.”
So you’re to blame for the uptick in the crime in the suburbs too homedelete? The carjackings, burglaries and muggings happening there too.
Karma bites, right?
“This is not something you should have to worry about living in one of the nicest areas of an allegedly top tier city.”
Yep. Sadly, those of us in Chicago, NYC, Washington DC, San Francisco, Miami and LA are ALL having to deal with it. I haven’t checked the other big cities, but I’m assuming NOLA, Savannah, Charleston, Atlanta, Houston are the same.
It’s happening nationwide. And worldwide. Spike in crime in European cities as well.
I don’t know how old you are sonies, but muggings have been happening in major cities for decades, right? It was really bad in the cities in the 1970s, 80s and 90s. Got better over the last 20 years. And now, it’s getting worse again.
And yes, I don’t take my phone. Have stopped taking my purse. But am now thinking I should so I have something to just give them. It’s safer that way.
“no, rents are too high… only places that can afford rent are lame chains”
Not true. Local restaurants are opening all the time in the Loop, actually.
On State Street, that might be true. But off of it, it’s not. In fact, probably one of the cheaper places in the city right now after the pandemic. Now’s the opportunity to get a cheap lease.
Maybe that’s why some local restaurants are going in.
And before you all start saying, “it’s not happening in the suburbs” maybe you should check in on your local news.
https://patch.com/illinois/bolingbrook/teens-carjack-woman-gunpoint-boughton-road-police
I left Chicago but I don’t consider myself a hater and definitely not a permabear across the board. The City will always have some hot areas. I just don’t think the Loop will be one of them any time soon. I think it’ll continue to be a spot for transient workers & students. Not a bad place to add rental capacity but condos are not the play. It will never be a family neighborhood and it’s not exactly beneficial to be a short term owner so who will absorb new condos? If I’m wrong then why did that Helmut Jahn 1000m swap to apartments?
Regarding crime: I personally had some bad adrenaline spiking experiences and suddenly found myself agreeing with the bored suburban ranting people after dismissing their annoying drivel for years… Apparently now I’m one of them.
“no, rents are too high… only places that can afford rent are lame chains”
And casualty insurance, and *having* to use union labor for everything, etc., etc.
Opening a retail business/restaurant in any downtown high rise is no joke.
I don’t know. I’m a 22 year resident of the South Loop. Crime is certainly up. I don’t think it is just the pandemic. I also blame a far-too-lenient court system, led by Kim Foxx, who is consistently reluctant to prosecute. And the “reform” of the bail system just puts criminals out on the streets where they can do more damage.
No one wants to hear it, but there *are* bad people out there. And they need to be put in prison.
We also need a stronger, more vibrant police force.
I’m a 30 year Chicago resident (other neighborhoods before South Loop), but I’m considering leaving when my kids finish high school. I hope they get crime under control so I don’t have to.
“I haven’t checked the other big cities, but …
“I’m assuming NOLA, Savannah, Charleston, Atlanta, Houston”
Savannah and Charleston are “big cities”?? Did we revert to 1790 for a minute there?
Charleston is smaller than Joliet.
Savannah is smaller than Rockford.
Oh, metros?
Savannah is the same size as Peoria, IL.
Charleston is #74, between Dayton and Stockton.
Leaving Philly off any list of “also having crime issues” is a blindspot–#6 city, #7 metro, and they’ve broken their crack-era record for homicides (500), with a month to go.
As bad as it has been here (785 so far), there’s almost no way we’re getting to early-90s peak numbers, nevermind the 1974 all-time record of 970.
btw, NYC homicides are down slightly from 2020. Burglaries down, too, by a lot. Rest of the index crimes are up, tho.
“Clearly a holdover from the pandemic.”
Why? Record job openings, increased wages (especially at the low end), low unemployment. What does the pandemic have to do with increased crime? It’s a ridiculous theory.
The list of cities with record murder rates in 2021 is long: Philly as you said above, Louisville, Milwaukee, Austin, Portland, Baltimore, Columbus, Indy just broke it’s all time record two days ago…Crime is up in the suburbs too…especially burglaries and theft, not just retail theft but home invasions too.
Because equity!
One interesting stat I think I pointed out a while back was that in 2020 more guns were purchased in IL than any other state. I just read that the first 10 months of 2021 are no different, IL has purchased more guns than any other state again. IL residents purchased one out of every four guns sold in the US last year and again this year.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/this-is-the-state-that-sells-the-most-guns/ss-AAQV1J6
“People need to stay home over the next 8 weeks.”
How should a service sector employee pay their monthly bills under this scenario? How about an hourly union employee that only gets paid when work is lined up like a plumber, electrician, etc.?
Also, since you are now worried about crime and believe it is a “holdover from the pandemic” how would crime be affected if people couldn’t work for 8 weeks in your hypothetical scenario?
Do you believe the Government should go door-to-door ensuring you, your neighbors, and family members, aren’t celebrating the Holidays together?
You do know that Covid spreads indoors. How does everyone “going home” and staying indoors help stop the rona? seems counterproductive given we already tried that once for ~8 weeks and it failed….. miserably.
Double down on the same failed strategies. I wonder how that works out…
“How should a service sector employee pay their monthly bills under this scenario? How about an hourly union employee that only gets paid when work is lined up like a plumber, electrician, etc.?”
They are vaccinated and got the booster, WP? We have tools now. I have family members working in an essential industry. They have gone in during this entire pandemic. They never shut down. They did have one covid outbreak early. They have been vaccinated. Similar to what the airlines are doing.
But others are not vaccinated. And they are eating indoors, without masks. And hanging out with family members for the holidays, without masks, indoors.
We all know how this virus spreads. We also know how to bend the curve.
It’s why the Netherlands has banned indoor dining again. They have to do SOMETHING to save their medical professionals and hospitals.
“Double down on the same failed strategies. I wonder how that works out…”
If we had a higher vaccination rate, we wouldn’t be in this situation.
As it is, deaths are still not as high as the earlier waves, thank goodness. And most who are dying now are unvaccinated.
Our poor medical professionals. They don’t deserve this.
Outbreak is going to be bad. Just in time for Christmas.
“What does the pandemic have to do with increased crime? It’s a ridiculous theory.”
There are no words to even answer this question because it’s so silly.
“If we had a higher vaccination rate, we wouldn’t be in this situation. ”
incorrect. The CDC came out and said even if we vaccinated the entire planet at the same time we would still be having these same issues. Look at Gibraltar with its 140% vaccination rate still having cases and deaths… The vaccine doesn’t offer 100% immunity so its just going to help, but only a little.
“What does the pandemic have to do with increased crime? It’s a ridiculous theory.”
According to Chicago’s political leaders, equity is the cause of, and solution to, all of society’s problems!
My favorite decision for the cause of equity (and most related to this topic), is that our leaders:
~ purposely locked down downtown in unimaginable ways;
~ allowed an entire summer and fall of riots and looting;
~ stopped arresting teens who caused mayhem in the loop and RN;
~ and stopped proactive policing throughout the entire city…
and now, just like Captain Renault in Casablanca, Lori/JB/Toni/Kim are SHOCKED, SHOCKED to find out that downtown is on life support, Michigan Ave is 1/3rd vacant, and now 2/3rds of suburban workers and tourists have been scared away, and probably aren’t coming back, at least not full time, and not anytime soon.
But hey, gang bangers can spray bullets everywhere downtown with automatic weapons all hours of the day and night, because it would be, you know, inequitable, to prosecute crime. The statewide no cash bail experiment – passed despite overwhelming evidence of failure everywhere it’s been tried – goes into effect in 2023. If you think crime is bad now, just wait until prosecutors are basically prohibited by state law for asking for bail for murders, rapists and child molesters. All in the name of equity!
https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/11/28/river-north-shooting-huron-street/
“‘It Sounded Like An Automatic Weapon’: Video Captures Rapid Gunfire In River North Shooting That Left Two Injured
The latest data shows that shootings in the 18th Police District are up 63% this year compared to the same time last year.”
“Neither Fulton Market or the West Loop have had “cheap rents” for 20 years. And it’s boomed.
The Loop has all the ingredients. Historic buildings. Great location. Entertainment. But it needs more local restaurants, cafes.”
This is where you need to be specific on the definition of “loop”. To point to Fulton Market and West Loop as the “loop” needing more “restaurants” seems to be in direct contrast with the purpose of the original post not to mention restaurants and Fulton Market/West Loop go hand-in-hand.
I don’t see the city being able to pull off another “lakeshore east” over the next 10 years that close to the heart of the loop (west of the lake, south and east of the river, north of Harrison). I would also say the person living in lakeshore east is looking for something much different than someone moving to River North and West Loop.
I don’t think the “loop” (west of lake, south and east of river, north of Harrison) will have big residential growth over the next 10 years. I could see the West Loop boom slowly pushing eastward given the increases in new office buildings along the Chicago River (north of Clinton, west of Clark, and South/East of the River).
“lakeshore east” booms over the next ten years will come from Lincoln Yards and the build-up south in the Clyborn Corridor maybe around Goose Island as well.
We will what comes of the 78 as that could be another “lakeshore east” type boom.
I’m curious if the Fulton Market/West Loop boom pushes farther west first towards the United Center which may occur with the conversions/demolitions of the industrial warehouses in the Kinzie Corridor to apartments or due to affordability will growth jump south of 290 in the Medical District and UIC/Pilsen area with some large developments given proximity to the loop.
“I don’t know. I’m a 22 year resident of the South Loop. Crime is certainly up. I don’t think it is just the pandemic. I also blame a far-too-lenient court system, led by Kim Foxx, who is consistently reluctant to prosecute.”
This would be true of every city then endora. All cities in America must have a too-lenient court system.
“Opening a retail business/restaurant in any downtown high rise is no joke.”
Huh?
It’s happening, literally, every month downtown anon(tfo). And who said they were opening in a “high rise”? Plenty of low rises in the loop too.
Let’s put it this way, if you’re in the restaurant business you are VERY aware of the costs of doing business in the city yet you are doing it anyway. It has never stopped Boka Group from expanding, for example. It’s going to open up three new restaurants in Southport next year. It has not stopped Chinatown restaurants from opening in other neighborhoods. The restauranteurs have figured it out.
It’s only people on blogs who complain about “union labor.” That would be like a developer saying they aren’t going to build that high rise because the door staff will have to be unionized once it opens.
Lol.
“But others are not vaccinated. And they are eating indoors, without masks. And hanging out with family members for the holidays, without masks, indoors.”
So you would like to set up a two-tier class system mandating vaccination and booster shots to go anywhere in public? You realize in Chicago, a city of over 2 million people there are 31 people hospitalized with Covid currently…. It doesn’t sound like Covid is much of an issue.
Also, if you are vaccinated why are you afraid of the unvaccinated? Further, google “endemic”. People aren’t getting boosters every 6 month for eternity so what’s your plan on that one?
“It’s why the Netherlands has banned indoor dining again. They have to do SOMETHING to save their medical professionals and hospitals.”
31 people in the hospital with Covid in a population of over 2 million and you think the system is going to collapse? If so, the issue ain’t covid.
You cite the Netherlands where 88% of the 18+ population is vaccinated. If that’s still not good enough maybe you need to realize its something we are going to have to live with and start dealing with that reality.
“If I’m wrong then why did that Helmut Jahn 1000m swap to apartments?”
Couldn’t sell 1000 square foot apartments with those west views for $1 million in that location. Buyers only wanted the east views. Was overpriced for the Loop with over 500 condos.
Even outside the loop, would take a decade to sell that.
It makes far more sense as apartments as we know, with NEMA, for example, that they CAN rent out 700+ luxury apartments in that location.
It’s really difficult to sell a 400+ condo building. Anywhere in Chicago. This isn’t 2005 when investors bought up a bunch of the units. And these are all at luxury price points at a time when there are 10 other luxury buildings also offering the luxury product. Just aren’t enough luxury buyers in Chicago to absorb it quickly.
“If we had a higher vaccination rate, we wouldn’t be in this situation.”
What vaccination rate is that? 88% in the Netherlands still not good enough…… What situation are we actually in? The only people freaking out about this still is middle-aged upper middle class white collar liberals.
Go look at the TSA numbers from this past weekend. Not a huge difference from pre-covid 2.4 million this weekend compared to 2.9 million in 2019.
https://www.axios.com/tsa-screen-passenger-covid-pandemic-thanksgiving-c3113cdc-465a-4c65-aa46-98bb0f67b11c.html
“So you would like to set up a two-tier class system mandating vaccination and booster shots to go anywhere in public?”
This has already happened WP. Where have you been?
Go to LA. Have to show your vaccination card to get into restaurants.
Go to Europe. Same thing. Get on a plane in some countries. The same.
I’m shocked the US hasn’t mandated vaccines to fly yet. If the new variant starts causing big outbreaks on the planes, as it did coming from South Africa into the Netherlands last week (10% tested positive on those 2 planes), then they will likely mandate it.
“All cities in America must have a too-lenient court system.”
If those cities put alleged murderers, armed carjackers, organized retail looters, and shooters on electronic monitoring like Cook County does than yes.
Also, if those cities like Cook County emptied out the jails like they did using “covid” as an excuse then yes. Kind of sad that we have to have a federal task force charging and prosecuting carjackers because Cook County only charges carjackers as misdemeanors who are let go the next day shows you someone isn’t doing their job.
“ We all know how this virus spreads. We also know how to bend the curve.”
Awww, not this shit again
Are green shoots next?
“This has already happened WP. Where have you been?”
Three cities in the country that i’m aware of – New York, LA, and San Fran. Your coastal bias is showing. Also, how effective have these requirements been? New York appears to be surging no?
“Go to Europe. Same thing. Get on a plane in some countries. The same.”
Who would want to travel to another country spend thousands of dollars to deal with this ridiculousness.
“I’m shocked the US hasn’t mandated vaccines to fly yet”
How many more billions would you like to give to the airline industry? There’s all the headlines about people not wanting to wear masks on airplanes currently. How’s a vaccine mandate going to go over?
“If the new variant starts causing big outbreaks on the planes”
Did the plane cause the outbreak or was it the country(s) where the people where staying at? I don’t think planes cause outbreaks. Its just a mode of transportation.
“then they will likely mandate it.”
Remind me how the OSHA mandate in the Federal Courts is going? The only way there is a “mandate” is if air travel material decreases due to it not be mandated. That hasn’t occurred and likely won’t.
“
Couldn’t sell 1000 square foot apartments with those west views for $1 million in that location. Buyers only wanted the east views. Was overpriced for the Loop with over 500 condos.”
I thought no one wanted lake views and looking into other buildings was the preferred view?
“I don’t think the “loop” (west of lake, south and east of river, north of Harrison) will have big residential growth over the next 10 years.”
The whole point of the article was that they AREN’T putting in commercial into many of the buildings anymore. It will be converted into housing, of some kind (apartments or condos).
The Loop has already seen big population gain over the last 10 years. Why couldn’t it see another 10,000+ in the next 10 years? It has ALL the ingredients to being a cool neighborhood, especially location.
Why wouldn’t I want to move into a 130 year old historic building with a courtyard across from Daley Plaza? Yes- many young people WILL want that.
20 years ago, when the big push to bring residential to the loop first began, there were lots of articles in the Tribune about the “pioneers” and many said it couldn’t be done and no one would want to live there. They were wrong.
But, a lot of the energy that should have been downtown appears to have gone to the West Loop, and now that they’ve lifted the land use restrictions, into Fulton Market.
This could be the opportunity to bring a lot of residents to downtown.
“Three cities in the country that i’m aware of – New York, LA, and San Fran. Your coastal bias is showing. Also, how effective have these requirements been? New York appears to be surging no?”
So 20 million+ people have to show their vaccination card but it’s not really happening in the US?
LMFAO.
“prosecutors are basically prohibited by state law for asking for bail for murders, rapists and child molesters.”
You know that it isn’t that simple–it’s also a question of whether the finding of ‘danger to others’ gets a lowered threshold/standard. Prosecutors need to ask for it (and offer some evidence), of course, which is a dubious assumption right now in Cook.
Elimination of bail /= elimination of pre-trial detention.
“Did the plane cause the outbreak or was it the country(s) where the people where staying at? I don’t think planes cause outbreaks. Its just a mode of transportation.”
30% were not wearing masks on the plane, apparently. The Dutch government tested everyone when they landed. 60 out of the 600 tested positive in the next 5 days.
I have no idea if they required a negative test before leaving South Africa, or not.
Good times.
Omicron spreads very rapidly, apparently. Even more so than Delta.
If you are United or American, do you want to let passengers on who have not been vaccinated with that quick of a spread?
I wouldn’t.
The Chinese have had outbreaks caused by spread on international flights. They basically just quarantined everyone on the plane.
“Kind of sad that we have to have a federal task force charging and prosecuting carjackers because Cook County only charges carjackers as misdemeanors who are let go the next day shows you someone isn’t doing their job.”
You’ve got this backwards. Kim Foxx is doing her job and she’s doing an exceptionally good job!
Kim doesn’t see her office’s primary function as prosecuting criminals. She was elected and has redefined the job description. Kim Foxx’s mission first and foremost is to provide equitable anti-racist justice to address and counter-act systemic and structural racism against persons of color, minorities and other underrepresented groups.
Her office’s new mission means a lot of people are going to be undercharged, or not charged at all, and lots of criminals will be given 2, 3, 20 or more chances to get their life together to become productive members of society. You get shot or carjacked by a 15 year old? Come on man, just give the kid another chance, he’ll get his life together eventually, it’s not his fault.
“Remind me how the OSHA mandate in the Federal Courts is going? The only way there is a “mandate” is if air travel material decreases due to it not be mandated. That hasn’t occurred and likely won’t.”
The airlines can do whatever they want. They are private businesses. If you don’t wear a mask, they can ban you from ever flying their airline again.
“It’s only people on blogs who complain about “union labor.” ”
I knew someone who once had a retail business in a downtown building. He was hassled by the trades guy for the building for doing some painting *himself*. It’s a real issue.
And an unacceptable amount of the time the guys doing the space buildout suck.
I will delete any comment that mentions George Soros.
I’m still waiting for my check from the women’s march homedelete. Where is it???? I’ve been waiting 5 years.
https://www.kimfoxx.com/pledge
We are making a pledge to fight for racial justice.
A message from Cook County State’s Attorney Kim Foxx:
As a Black woman in America, I am challenged every day to operate in a system that was not built for me to be successful. As a Black woman in politics, I recognize that I have a certain responsibility that many candidates do not share. A responsibility to run a campaign that is both representative and equitable. A responsibility to lift up the concerns and listen to the hopes of my community. And a responsibility to forge a path forward for the next generation of Black women in office.
I do not take this lightly. And I want to build a campaign that reflects that fact. That is why my campaign is making a pledge to fight for racial justice.
I hope you will sign your name and join me in making this pledge.
Thank you,
Kim
“The Loop has already seen big population gain over the last 10 years. Why couldn’t it see another 10,000+ in the next 10 years?”
re-read my comment and the article. This growth was mostly due to the Lakeshore East development. Where you going to put another Lakeshore East Development in the loop? Further, how will you get 26 alderman to approve the zoning change when they want to focus more on outlying neighborhoods not the loop….
“Why wouldn’t I want to move into a 130 year old historic building with a courtyard across from Daley Plaza? Yes- many young people WILL want that”
There’s literally nothing in walking distance outside of the lakefront. It’s pretty dead on the weekend outside of the occasional protest at Daley Plaza which would deter people from wanting to live there.
“But, a lot of the energy that should have been downtown appears to have gone to the West Loop, and now that they’ve lifted the land use restrictions, into Fulton Market.
This could be the opportunity to bring a lot of residents to downtown”
Ok. Again, are we defining the “loop” as Daley Plaza or the Kinzie Industrial Corridor? These are two very different areas. Why would someone see development of Kinzie and say to themselves maybe we should develop near Daley Plaza or some 25 year old going I want to live near Daley Plaza now that Kinzie is being redeveloped. Makes no sense.
Further, I think alot of the Loop TIF’s specifically around the Daley Center expired or are expiring with no political will to extend or create new ones in that area which is why Lakeshore East was able to occur in the first place.
“I will delete any comment that mentions George Soros. ”
So now you’re deleting the Chicago Sun-Times factual reporting because you don’t like what it says? It’s your blog, delete what you want I guess.
“What situation are we actually in? The only people freaking out about this still is middle-aged upper middle class white collar liberals.”
Gosh, I don’t know WP. People dying???
So sad. It doesn’t have to be like this. Get vaccinated. Save yourself and our medical professionals.
The son had NO pre-existing condition. Was apparently afraid of needles. So sad.
https://www.duluthnewstribune.com/newsmd/coronavirus/7298625-North-Dakota-father-son-die-3-days-apart-one-with-dementia-one-with-COVID-19
“So 20 million+ people have to show their vaccination card but it’s not really happening in the US”
Out of a total population of 350 million. So no it’s not “really” happening when it effects less than 6% of the population. Further, I think Erick Adams is rolling back the vaccine mandate when he takes office which would cut the US population under the mandate in half to ~10 million or <3% of the entire US population.
“Who would want to travel to another country spend thousands of dollars to deal with this ridiculousness.”
The unvaccinated will not be able to travel internationally. Ever (except to Mexico, which doesn’t care.)
Surprisingly, plenty of Americans are back to traveling again. Many of us LIKE going to other countries and miss it.
After Thailand opened back to tourists recently, over 11,000 Americans rushed over.
“The Chinese have had outbreaks caused by spread on international flights. They basically just quarantined everyone on the plane.”
LOL. So you are clamoring for President (Cough Dictator Cough) Xi in the US while at the same time saying democracy is under great threat and we can’t let authoritarians win…..
Hard to take you seriously.
“Out of a total population of 350 million. So no it’s not “really” happening when it effects less than 6% of the population.”
LMFAO.
Ba ha ha ha.
MILLIONS of people cannot go out and about because they have chosen to be unvaccinated. And it really isn’t happening???
Ba ha ha ha.
Give it up, WP. You’re just making yourself look even more like a fool.
As the virus mutates, there will be ever MORE mandates.
It’s the only way to get out of the pandemic. People have to get vaccinated before one of these mutations really screws us and it doesn’t respond to the vaccination.
55 million+ remain unvaccinated in the United States. It’s a huge drag on the US economy because they will constantly be getting sick, not wanting to take jobs where they might be exposed, or not taking jobs at all, and causing crisis situations within our hospitals.
“The airlines can do whatever they want. They are private businesses.”
LOL no they don’t. They are a highly regulated industry. Explain the purpose of the FAA please.
Also, lets see how the TSA vaccination mandate goes oh and lets ignore the fact that Biden keeps pushing back mandates for federal contactors.
“.If you don’t wear a mask, they can ban you from ever flying their airline again.”
That’s FAA policy not airline policy. Talk to your guy Biden as to why he hasn’t required this then.
“LOL. So you are clamoring for President (Cough Dictator Cough) Xi in the US while at the same time saying democracy is under great threat and we can’t let authoritarians win…..”
Nope. Try again.
I brought it up because outbreaks HAVE happened on airplanes, especially on international flights. So, yeah, the plane CAN cause an outbreak as it appears to have done on those flights into the Netherlands.
Even with all the good air circulation in modern aircraft, the delta and omicron might be too easily spread if you’re not wearing a mask. We don’t know yet. Let’s hope omnicron isn’t that bad. Sounds like the symptoms might not be as severe, which would be fantastic.
Fingers crossed.
“That’s FAA policy not airline policy.”
No it’s not. FAA policy is that you MUST wear a mask on a plane.
It’s airline policy that they can ban you if you don’t. FAA will just fine you if you don’t.
“LOL no they don’t.”
Yes, they do.
The individual airlines decided if their employees have to have the vaccination or not. Nothing to do with FAA, for example.
The airlines can decide if you ever fly on their airlines again. The FAA does not.
“MILLIONS of people cannot go out and about because they have chosen to be unvaccinated. And it really isn’t happening?”
Explain how this will work in a city where the neighborhoods with the lowest vaccination rates are on the south and west sides.
Doesn’t seem very equitable….
How would the green zones get their same day amazon packages delivered? The outrage that would ensue…
“After Thailand opened back to tourists recently, over 11,000 Americans rushed over.”
Epstein effect?
“The individual airlines decided if their employees have to have the vaccination or not. Nothing to do with FAA, for example.”
You changed the discussion. per usual. We were talking about traveling passengers not employees of Delta. The mask mandate was implemented by FAA along with the Department of Transportation which oversees Amtrak not the airlines themselves.
The employer is allowed to require vaccination as part of employment not as a condition of service. That’s why vaccine mandates for services are being imposed by government and their regulatory agencies not private businesses
Last post, lunch break over soon:
Kim? Hello?
https://mobile.twitter.com/MikeLoweReports/status/1465339749183496200
A source says a second victim in this shooting has died. The source said the victim is a 14-year-old girl who was set to testify in an upcoming Cook County homicide trial. @WGNNews
Evanston, IL Police @EvanstonPD
12h
#Evanston PD is investigating a shooting at Chicago Ave and Howard St. at 1151 pm in 11/28 EPD received multiple 911 calls of shots fired.
“ “People need to stay home over the next 8 weeks”
Good thing President Biden had a plan…
“People have to get vaccinated before one of these mutations really screws us and it doesn’t respond to the vaccination. ”
The vaccinations already don’t respond to the variants… thats why they are pushing you to get boosters every 6 months for eternity
It is all bullshit and it needs to end. Covid is not serious for just about everyone under age 50 and the variants are becoming weaker and weaker.
“The vaccine doesn’t offer 100% immunity so its just going to help, but only a little.”
Only a little? Seriously? Do I really have to dig out the data for you? Please click through for the details. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/index.html
sure they help if you completely ignore the amount of side effects
watch this 7:30 minute video he explains it much better than I can
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD0nwFHJPuw&list=FL20Oenv-zBuWWavenUpoTvA&index=1
“It’s only people on blogs who complain about “union labor.” ”
Many years ago we moved our startup into a union high rise downtown. I got in trouble for hanging a picture in my office myself. Had to get a union carpenter to do it. Seriously.
“What does the non-deadly Covid scamdemic…”
800,000 deaths is non-deadly?
“Look at Waukesha, WI. That was a racist, terrorist act akin to Dylan Roof”
Let’s see…Dylan Roof was a known white supremacist who went out of his way to kill black people. Darrell Brooks was running away from something and just drove through a crowd like a madman because it was convenient for him and he didn’t give a shit. How are the two comparable?
“The vaccinations already don’t respond to the variants”
Please don’t get your medical information from Tucker Carlson. That statement is patently false. Do I need to prove it?
“sure they help if you completely ignore the amount of side effects”
“Side effects”?
Seriously. There are over a billion people who have gotten the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines now. It’s saving millions of lives.
Come on.
Safest vaccines in history. ALL of them. JNJ, Astrazeneca, Pfizer and Moderna.
“Only a little? Seriously? Do I really have to dig out the data for you?”
The COVID deniers went from being deniers that the virus was “real” to now denying that the vaccines do anything. Next, they’ll deny the Pfizer/Merck pills that have been developed and say that those are worse than death too.
“The vaccinations already don’t respond to the variants… thats why they are pushing you to get boosters every 6 months for eternity.”
No, they are pushing you to get boosters because the antibodies fade. So if you had COVID in spring 2020, you no longer have very good “immunity.”
It’s the same reason you get a flu shot every year.
Oh- and here we come with the “it’s not serious” as the COVID deniers keep trying to deny. So sad.
This winter, there will still be over 1,000 Americans dying every day. Let us pray that it doesn’t get worse than that and approach 2,000 every day. The key is to keeping the hospitals open. Michigan hospitals have halted all elective procedures again because they are overwhelmed. In some Midwest states, they have more hospitalized than at any time during the pandemic.
It’s mostly unvaccinated. Of all ages.
Let’s hope the variants weaken and the Pfizer/Merck treatments save lives.
It’s going to be a long, deadly winter, I’m afraid. And all your whining about it, sonies, isn’t going to change the death rate.
Get vaccinated. Get boosted. Stay home during this next wave. Spring should be better.
“Good thing President Biden had a plan…”
Military is vaccinated JohnnyU. Yeah- that’s a plan. Also all federal workers. Yeah- that’s a plan too.
Military doctors just sent in to Michigan. Part of the plan, JohnnyU.
Oh, and massive stimulus plan passed to start the year, including extending unemployment and evictions.
“watch this 7:30 minute video he explains it much better than I can”
The problem is you have an orthopedic surgeon cherry picking data and presenting it. Here is a more thorough review of the data. It was reviewed by an entire panel of experts. In addition, we now have results from a much larger sample which I linked to earlier. It’s clear that the vaccines substantially reduce hospitalizations and deaths without significant adverse side effects. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2034577
“The employer is allowed to require vaccination as part of employment not as a condition of service.”
All the cruise ships require you to be vaccinated, WP.
They can ALL require it on the airplanes. Tomorrow. If they wanted to.
They are private businesses. They control their service. Which is why they can ban you for life not wearing a mask, punching their flight attendants etc.
“The mask mandate was implemented by FAA along with the Department of Transportation which oversees Amtrak not the airlines themselves.”
Yes. LISTEN TO WHAT I AM SAYING.
The mask mandate is required by the FAA. BUT BANNING YOU FOR LIFE FROM DELTA FOR NOT WEARING A MASK, OR OTHER BEHAVIOR, IS EXCLUSIVELY UP TO THE AIRLINES.
My god. What a stupid discussion.
The airlines can do whatever they want. They decide who flies on their planes. There is NO constitutional right to get on an airplane.
Sonies,
Let me be more direct in my response. What I said a few minutes ago is accurate but I can go into more detail. The problem you have with these trials is that 22,000 people are given the placebo. Now, during the trial period how many of those are going to get infected? They actually show that and it’s like 2.5% and only 1.5% of those are going to die. So it’s no surprise that you won’t see a difference in the deaths between the two groups. But ortho surgeon doesn’t explain that does he?
So why should we believe that the vaccines prevent deaths? Because now we have a sample size of over 100 MM and we have the data and I linked to it earlier.
This is the problem with drawing conclusions from random viral videos.
“Michigan’s number of hospitalized adults with confirmed COVID-19 cases reached a new pandemic high Monday, near 4,200, as the state continued to confront surging infections.
The total of 4,181 surpassed the previous record of 4,158, which was set seven months ago during the state’s third wave.”
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michigans-covid-19-hospitalizations-reach-record-high/
“The Iowa Department of Public Health released new data Monday that shows 665 patients hospitalized with the virus, up from 616 at last report on Friday. Of those hospitalized with COVID-19, 75.1% are unvaccinated, while 85.6% of those listed in intensive care with the virus are unvaccinated.”
https://www.kcci.com/article/iowa-department-of-public-health-covid-19-update-november-29-2021/38377601#
“The number of COVID-19 patients in Indiana hospitals continued its sharp spike over the Thanksgiving weekend.
The state health department reports Indiana hospitals had about 2,000 COVID-19 patients as of Sunday, an increase of 170, or 9%, from Tuesday.
Indiana has seen a 66% increase in hospitalizations over the past three weeks.”
https://www.wane.com/news/indiana/indianas-covid-19-surge-continued-over-thanksgiving-weekend/
“Another 44 COVID-19 deaths and 4,450 coronavirus infections were reported Monday in Minnesota, which has the highest seven-day rate of new infections among U.S. states. COVID-19 hospitalizations increased in Minnesota to a 2021 record of 1,467 on Friday, and included 340 people receiving intensive care.
The state is caught in a double-whammy of high infection rates among the unvaccinated and rising infection rates among the earliest COVID-19 vaccine recipients.
Immunity appears to wane six months after vaccination or prior infection, increasing the risks for elderly Minnesotans and people with underlying health problems who were prioritized for initial doses last winter.
Thirty-four of the deaths reported Monday were in seniors and 14 were in residents of long-term care facilities. The youngest death reported Monday was a Pine County resident in the 35-to-39 age range.”
https://www.startribune.com/booster-numbers-rise-in-minnesota-as-covid-19-wave-worsens/600121914/
Based on the above, I don’t think a President Biden has shut down COVID.
Good thing he’s laser focused
Now he’s banning travel? Sounds awfully racist
“ Darrell Brooks was running away from something and just drove through a crowd like a madman because it was convenient for him and he didn’t give a shit.”
How’s the Flavor-Ade?
Is this a lot?
https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2021/11/30/cook-county-1000-homicides/
Cook County Surpasses 1,000 Homicides For First Time Since 1994
CHICAGO (CBS) — For the first time in more than 30 years, there have been more than 1,000 homicides in Cook County, including 777 in Chicago alone.
The Cook County Medical Examiner’s office said, as of Tuesday, the county’s homicide total stands at 1,009, with more than a month still to go in 2021. Of those, 927 were gun-related homicides.
The last time Cook County had more than 1,000 homicides in one year was 1994, when there were 1,141 homicides. The record for Cook County is 1,229 homicides in 1991. Cook County had 986 homicides last year, a 40% increase over 2019’s total of 675.
Chicago alone has had 777 homicides so far this year, according to the medical examiner’s office. That’s more than the total number of homicides reported by Chicago Police all of last year, when CPD reported 769 homicides.
“Darrell Brooks was running away from something and just drove through a crowd like a madman because it was convenient for him and he didn’t give a shit.”
I cannot believe Gary Lucido wrote that and expects any of us to take him serious as a human being. How utterly dishonest.
Thank you for articulating your position so clearly.
“It’s clear that the vaccines substantially reduce hospitalizations”
Appears to be working in Illinois:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/vaccine/ct-coronavirus-vaccine-boosters-illinois-omicron-20211201-i6xqeln5nzhapjdyage67lnyvu-story.html
-90% seems statistically significant.
You’d have to be a pretty obese or a completely out-of-shape sedentary American to get “hospitalized” over this non-lethal virus. We still cannot trust the CDC figures about “800,000” deaths. They are not all due to COVID. It’s not a lethal virus, the recovery rate is VERY HIGH.
One thing we have to admit about Trump, love him or hate him, he did prove to the American people just how fake and dishonest the mainstream media really is. He outed them all for what ilk they are. Same now goes for government bureaucrats, they are likewise very loathsome and untrustworthy individuals sucking off the taxpayers’ teet like slobs.
So, unless you are an individual with poor health, or bad nutrition, don’t work out or exercicse, etc. then you don’t need the jabbs, because healthy people are not “hospitalized”, only the unhealthy who made bad choices in their lives.
So, take the shot if you are one of the unhealthy and fear hospitalization. For the REST of America, who aren’t compromised and who won’t be hospitalized, let them have their freedom and livelihoods and jobs. You’d be crazy to take the jab, unless you are really unhealthy in your life.
Democracy is now 80% idiotic slob moron rule, vs. the 20% of thee intelligent and healthy people.
“You’d have to be a pretty obese or a completely out-of-shape sedentary American to get “hospitalized” over this non-lethal virus. We still cannot trust the CDC figures about “800,000” deaths. They are not all due to COVID. It’s not a lethal virus, the recovery rate is VERY HIGH.”
I will delete all comments from the COVID deniers denying the severity of this virus or that people have died.
My god, another “famous” individual just died from it HH. He was not obsese. However, he was in his 60s and apparently had diabetes. How sad. The vaccine, and now the boosters, are available for all adults, especially those at highest risk.
Indiana announced today that cases are rising too quickly, and so are hospitalizations. They warned of record hospitalizations as only about 50% of the state is vaccinated.
So sad. It didn’t have to be like this.
Yesterday, Michigan reported 358 deaths, but it did include 150 prior deaths. But Michigan, also at record hospitalizations, is now seeing 100 deaths a day. That’s a small jet liner crashing every single day.
Germany at 70,000 cases a day. All time record. They are now restricting those who aren’t vaccinated and it looks likely they will mandate everyone be vaccinated by early next year.
“another “famous” individual”
Q score of less than 10 /= “famous” even with the scare quotes.
Q-Anon score of over 90 ALSO /= “famous”.
“Q score of less than 10 /= “famous” even with the scare quotes.”
The man who runs one of the country’s largest Christian television networks isn’t “famous”?
Oh, I think he is. Very, in fact.
So tragic. The vaccine was the “devil.” But the Covid got him anyway. Prayers for his friends and family.
Get the vaccine and the boosters.
Helmethofer,
“We still cannot trust the CDC figures about “800,000” deaths. They are not all due to COVID. It’s not a lethal virus, the recovery rate is VERY HIGH.”
So show us your data sources that have the “correct” numbers. You never provide any proof of anything you believe. I have no clue how you decide which lies to believe.
BTW, we know how many people are dying in total and we know how many should be dying based on history. The difference is called excess mortality and it’s running above 800,000. So how do you explain that?
Do facts even matter to you and your people?
“The difference is called excess mortality and it’s running above 800,000.”
Noted leftist rag The Economist pegs it at over 950,000, right now.
“The airlines can do whatever they want. They are private businesses. If you don’t wear a mask, they can ban you from ever flying their airline again.”
Yet the airline CEO’s testified this week on Capitol Hill saying wearing masks don’t really do anything on flights. Southwest Airlines CEO this week again under oath to Congress:
“I think the case is very strong that masks don’t add much, if anything, in the air cabin,” he said. “The environment is very safe, very high quality compared to any other indoor setting.”
“Southwest Airlines continues to abide by the federal mask mandate for customers and employees both within the airport environment and onboard all Southwest aircraft,” the airline added”
American Airlines CEO: “”aircraft is the safest place you can be.” “That’s true of all of our aircraft,” he said.
“Mask mandates on airlines and other forms of interstate transportation, such as buses and trains, were among the first executive orders signed by President Biden. He has since renewed the mandates until March.”
So again as I said multiple times it’s not up to the airlines. The Federal Government in this case Biden alone given the FAA reports through the Executive Branch is the one requiring masks on planes.
Based on the CEO’s comments it sounds like they don’t really support or see a reason for the requirement but have to comply regardless since they are a regulated entity.
https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/586072-airline-executive-says-masks-dont-add-much-on-flights
Noted leftist rag The Economist pegs it at over 950,000, right now.
Good thing President Joe “Inappropriate Shower” Biden has a plan
“Based on the CEO’s comments it sounds like they don’t really support or see a reason for the requirement but have to comply regardless since they are a regulated entity. ”
—————————–
Would you really expect an airline executive to admit in public that unmasked flying was simply 500 m.p.h. tins of plague?
Even advanced air filtration systems cannot overcome the fact that your fact is 20 inches away from someone else’s face, for hours on end.
And then there is this: https://www.ted.com/talks/raymond_wang_how_germs_travel_on_planes_and_how_we_can_stop_them/transcript?language=en
“ Even advanced air filtration systems cannot overcome the fact that your fact is 20 inches away from someone else’s face, for hours on end.”
It’s a good thing you can take your mask off when you eat or drink…
“Would you really expect an airline executive to admit in public that unmasked flying was simply 500 m.p.h. tins of plague?
Even advanced air filtration systems cannot overcome the fact that your fact is 20 inches away from someone else’s face, for hours on end.”
SHOW ME YOUR SOURCE. Otherwise you’re just making stuff up. You’re no better than Fauci the Fraud at this point. Just saying whatever you want, no evidence whatsoever, but you FEEL like advanced filtration can’t remove 1 particle per trillion of covid. Because I’m Johnc, I don’t care about science, I only care about how I feel!
“SHOW ME YOUR SOURCE.”
I did. Watch the video.
“It’s a good thing you can take your mask off when you eat or drink…”
Having just flown for the first time in 2 years I was horrified that they are serving snacks on a 2 hour flight. It’s stupid. Fortunately, our plane wasn’t that crowded.
https://www.aarp.org/travel/travel-tips/safety/info-2020/harvard-study-on-covid-19-flying-risk.html
flying is no more dangerous than going to a grocery store according to the AARP
and why are you horrified Gary? You’re vaccinated!
It is so strange to me that being a germaphobe is so popular these days, and even socially encouraged
I don’t understand why others feel like they have the right to tell people to wear a mask. If you are vaccinated and boosted, you have nothing to worry about. If you feel like masking on top of that vaccine and boost, please go ahead. But why are you forcing masking forever on an endemic virus that will never go away. Its especially rich coming from people screaming to wear masks that are obese, type II diabetic, and in poor cardiovascular health.
I’m vaccinated, boosted, and in great health. There is no reason for me to wear a mask. If someone is at risk of dying from covid, they shouldn’t be out in public period.
“Having just flown for the first time in 2 years I was horrified that they are serving snacks on a 2 hour flight. It’s stupid. Fortunately, our plane wasn’t that crowded.”
If youre that fearful of covid, I recommend never leaving your house. Have amazon, walmart, and target deliver your goods, and have your groceries delivered as well.
Gary probably just likes doing his virtual house tours more than actual in person showings lol
or he’s suddenly afraid of the air we breathe like Howard Hughes
1) Being vaccinated and boosted doesn’t prevent you from getting sick and being miserable for several days. Also, Omicron is a totally different thing. They now think it will require it’s own vaccine.
2) We can do without a snack on a 2 hour flight. I’m not just worried about me but I’m worried about the continued spread of this crap among people who are not fully vaccinated or boosted. The hospitals are filling up. Some state is calling in the national guard to help.
3) Really old people need people to take care of them. They can’t isolate
4) That’s why I have the right to ask you to wear a mask. It’s so trivial why bitch about it?
5) I don’t personally do that many showings but when I do everyone wears a mask and keeps their distance.
“ Also, Omicron is a totally different thing.”
Omicron cases are less severe then delta. With a booster, you’re likely to have no symptoms.
“ I’m not just worried about me but I’m worried about the continued spread of this crap among people who are not fully vaccinated or boosted”
If the obese unhealthy crowd doesn’t want to get a vaccine, they’re on their own at this point. They can live with their decision.
“ Really old people need people to take care of them”
Really old people have lived a long fulfilling life. My old parents want to live their last few years without this nonsense continuing. They gave up beyond getting their vaccines and boosters. Most other old people they know have too.
“ That’s why I have the right to ask you to wear a mask. It’s so trivial why bitch about it?”
My body my rights buddy. And if we don’t have that right, then I have the right to deny food to fat assess because they are causing more harm to this country and it’s overloaded hospital system then the non vaxxers.
That’s right Gary. Being vaccinated doesn’t mean you can’t get sick. That’s why measles is so prevalent among people who’ve taken the measles shot and why polio still infects and kills millions every day.
Looking back, I can’t believe how stupid we used to be. My Mom took me to a chickenpox party when I was a kid so I could develop natural immunity. But what we should have done is close down the world, develop a drug that we needed to take every 3 months for the rest of lives that has limited effectiveness in preventing chickenpox infections and done no studies on long term side effects on those drugs. I mean I never ended up getting chickenpox again but I would have felt so much better on the infinite shot plan.
“Also, Omicron is a totally different thing. They now think it will require it’s own vaccine.”
No they don’t. Facui already said it won’t. Further, the only “different thing” about this variant is that it is more virulent but significantly less severe. South Africa’s health minister reported on Friday per Bloomberg:
“a much lower rate of hospital admissions and signs that the wave of infections may be peaking.”
“Only 1.7% of identified Covid-19 cases were admitted to hospital in the second week of infections in the fourth wave, compared with 19% in the same week of the third delta-driven wave, South African Health Minister Joe Phaahla said at a press conference.”
“Health officials presented evidence that the strain may be milder, and that infections may already be peaking in the country’s most populous province, Gauteng.”
“Currently there are about 7,600 people with Covid-19 in South African hospitals, about 40% of the peak in the second and third waves. Excess deaths, a measure of the number of deaths against a historical average, are just below 2,000 a week, an eighth of their previous peak.”
“The number of Covid-19 hospitalizations in this wave is also being inflated by the fact that milder patients are being admitted because there is room to accommodate them. Many are there for other complaints but are routinely tested, according to health officials.”
“We have seen a decrease in a proportion of people who need to be on oxygen,” Jassat said at the press conference. “They are at very low levels.”
“A wastewater analysis carried out by the South African Medical Research Council for the week ended Dec. 10 showed a declining proportion of viral particles for two successive weeks at the plant that treats water draining from central Pretoria.”
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-17/s-africa-says-hospitalizations-in-omicron-wave-much-lower
“It’s a good thing you can take your mask off when you eat or drink…”
Don’t forget about the dozens of people on the flights that have low-quality non-medical grade masks and/or masks that aren’t fully covering their mouth and nose.
And as you rightfully point out would you like peanuts and something to drink.
Further, walk through an actual airport before getting on a plane. Go look at how packed the bar or food court is with people coming and going. Go look at the people sitting outside the gates. Not very many people wearing masks….. apparently Covid will only get you on the actual plane unless you are eating or drinking……
Oh and then there’s TSA that goes pull down your mask to every passenger going through security.
Wearing a mask on a plane is complete security theater that serves no purpose.
“Having just flown for the first time in 2 years I was horrified that they are serving snacks on a 2 hour flight. It’s stupid. Fortunately, our plane wasn’t that crowded.”
You are just as horrified by all the vendors serving food and drink in the airport too right?
“4) That’s why I have the right to ask you to wear a mask. It’s so trivial why bitch about it?”
It’s severely affecting the cognitive abilities of developing children for starters. Per the below Brown University study (note it is currently being peer reviewed) children born during the pandemic have significantly reduced verbal, motor, and overall cognitive performance compared to children born pre-pandemic with males and children in lower socioeconomic families being most affected.
From the study: “families also reported having adhered to stay-at-home and on-going mask and social distancing policies, suggesting observed effects are environmentally driven rather than due to potential direct effects of infection”
“Overall, we find that measured verbal, non-verbal, and overall cognitive scores are significantly lower since the beginning of the pandemic. Looking further, we find that children born before the pandemic and followed through the initial stages do not show a reduction in skills or performance, but rather that young infants born since the beginning of the pandemic show significantly lower performance than infants born before January 2019. Thus, our results seem to suggest that early development is impaired by the environmental conditions brought on by the pandemic.”
“In addition, masks worn in public settings and in school or daycare settings may impact a range of early developing skills, such as attachment, facial processing, and socioemotional processing.”
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.10.21261846v1
““4) That’s why I have the right to ask you to wear a mask. It’s so trivial why bitch about it?”
From The Atlantic this week: “The World Health Organization, for example, does not recommend masks for children under age 6. The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control recommends against the use of masks for any children in primary school.”
“Seen in this context, the CDC has taken an especially aggressive stance, recommending that all kids 2 and older should be masked in school.”
Hmmm shouldn’t we be having a debate about this? ~10 year age gap between what the EU and US is doing.
Feel free to read the rest of the article mostly it debunks rather succinctly the flawed, cherry picked and biased research the CDC and Biden Admin is pushing.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/12/mask-guidelines-cdc-walensky/621035/
“3) Really old people need people to take care of them. They can’t isolate”
Why would they not be able to isolate? If they need to see a Dr., go to the hospital, or have a home health person check/help them they can all wear masks when they are around.
Is there a requirement for Grandma and Grandpa to go to the restaurant to watch the price of right every day? Is the prune juice only served at the local watering hole? There’s no service or people that will pick up groceries and deliver them outside of their doorstep? The pills that they need can only be picked up in the bathroom of a nightclub?
Gary feel free to purchase your Chicago Sky season tickets though burred in a sun times article this week when talking to the Sky Principal Owner and Team President on protocols at home games for next years season:
“Alter expects the COVID-19 protocols to be similar to what they were last year, including Wintrust Arena having a full capacity crowd with masks and proof of vaccination. The Sky open their season on May 6 against the Los Angeles Sparks at Wintrust Arena.”
These people are absolutely nuts……
https://chicago.suntimes.com/chicago-sky-and-wnba/2021/12/18/22832318/sky-executives-expect-2022-will-be-best-year-yet-for-franchise
Mike HG,
“My body my rights buddy.”
So just to be clear…are you saying that you should not be required or expected to cover a part of your body through laws or societal norms? This is not a rhetorical question. I’d like to understand your position.
Stacy,
“That’s right Gary. Being vaccinated doesn’t mean you can’t get sick. That’s why measles is so prevalent among people who’ve taken the measles shot and why polio still infects and kills millions every day.”
Well, your facts are wrong about the prevalence of measles and polio. Those vaccines are damn near 100% effetive at preventing infection. That doesn’t mean we should expect that of all vaccines. The early shingles vaccine was not that effective nor is the infinite shot plan for flu. HPV vaccine is only 71% effective for women in their early 20s.
“Looking back, I can’t believe how stupid we used to be. My Mom took me to a chickenpox party when I was a kid so I could develop natural immunity.”
Pre-chicken pox vaccine maybe not that stupid. After the vaccine, not wise. I would never have done that to my kids.
WP,
“No they don’t. Facui already said it won’t. Further, the only “different thing” about this variant is that it is more virulent but significantly less severe. South Africa’s health minister reported on Friday per Bloomberg”
The problem we have is that everyone is being asked to explain what’s going on based on limited data and then 6 months later half the country thinks they lied to us after we get conflicting data. I heard one of the MRNA producer CEOs say they thought we might need an Omicron specific vaccine and you do know that both companies are working on them. They wouldn’t be investing that kind of money if they didn’t think it was possible. But at this time it appears that boosted MRNA vaccines prevent severe illness.
Regarding masking…are you a child? Because you responded to my position on YOU masking with a slew of responses about children masking.
“Why would they not be able to isolate? If they need to see a Dr., go to the hospital, or have a home health person check/help them they can all wear masks when they are around….Is there a requirement for Grandma and Grandpa to go to the restaurant to watch the price of right every day? Is the prune juice only served at the local watering hole? There’s no service or people that will pick up groceries and deliver them outside of their doorstep? The pills that they need can only be picked up in the bathroom of a nightclub?”
Obviously there are no really old people in your life. If they are home they need people to come in and clean or cook for them or fix stuff. If they are in a nursing home they will come into contact with probably 20 people in a day. Not sure why you would suggest masking as a solution since you believe it’s totally ineffective. The reality is that masking is well less than 100% effective and partly because even people in the health care field (lower end of the pay scale) don’t realize that you breathe through your nose or they wear a fashion statement mask or they have a bushy beard that lets all the air leak out. One of my biggest regrets is when Fauci told people they could weark cloth masks and he never rolled that statement back.
WP,
And, yes, the airport is a superspreader environment. No wonder this thing spreads so easily. I stay away from any crowded area and people who have their masks off or not worn properly. And those people are not just hanging out in airports.
Regarding the severity of Omicron…a recent UK study is drawing different conclusions than they came to in South Africa. Not peer reviewed yet and probably more limited data than South Africa: https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/232698/modelling-suggests-rapid-spread-omicron-england/
“ So just to be clear…are you saying that you should not be required or expected to cover a part of your body through laws or societal norms? This is not a rhetorical question. I’d like to understand your position.”
Who’s norms?
“ The problem we have is that everyone is being asked to explain what’s going on based on limited data and then 6 months later half the country thinks they lied to us after we get conflicting data. I heard one of the MRNA producer CEOs say they thought we might need an Omicron specific vaccine and you do know that both companies are working on them. They wouldn’t be investing that kind of money if they didn’t think it was possible. But at this time it appears that boosted MRNA vaccines prevent severe illness.”
Don’t blame this on the public, 98% of the problem falls at the feet of the “experts” and political class.
JFC you’ve got the VP Making comments like the following “ “We didn’t see Delta coming. I think most scientists did not — upon whose advice and direction we have relied — didn’t see Delta coming.”
“We didn’t see Omicron coming”
Delta was known back in June, and it was pretty evident the the virus could mutate.
Why would anyone put any trust in what comes out of these peoples soup coolers?
Having a little humility on supposed expertise would go a long way in getting the public to support things like masks.
“Regarding masking…are you a child? Because you responded to my position on YOU masking with a slew of responses about children masking.“
It goes to show the lack rational analysis in policy decisions
It also ignores the long term costs that forcing young children to wear masks has on their development. But screw them right Gary, you just need to worry about yourself.
Gary if you still believe these “models” coming out of the UK that have been 100% wrong you’re an idiot… just today someone spoke the truth about the models
https://mobile.twitter.com/RaheemKassam/status/1472559661970767872
And I Quote
“The Chairman of the UK’s COVID modelling committee admitted that they exclusively model bad scenarios that aid pro-lockdown policy decisions.”
“Gary if you still believe these “models” coming out of the UK that have been 100% wrong you’re an idiot… just today someone spoke the truth about the models”
What about those coming out of Denmark sonies? Are they “idiots” too?
Once again, the COVID deniers are going to be completely wrong as they have been for 2 YEARS. I would laugh, but too many people are dead because of the denial.
Here’s Denmark’s modeling:
Denmark’s hospitals have never had more than 1,000 covid 19 patients at any given time, last winter’s peak. But by early January, in a moderate scenario, hospitals could be seeing 500 new covid patients arriving every day. If omicron’s transmissibility winds up on the higher end, and it proves just as severe as the delta variant, with a strong ability to evade vaccines, daily admissions could reach 800.
And then there is the matter of infections. Before this wave, Denmark had never seen more than 5,000 cases in a day. On Friday, it logged more than 11,000 new cases. Within a week, in a moderate scenario, case numbers could hit 27,000. And into January? The institute’s estimates climb higher still, off the Y-axis.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/18/omicron-variant-denmark/
JohnnyU,
“Who’s norms?”
Let’s say for the sake of argument that to be a generally accepted norm it has to be the view of like 90% of the population.
“And, yes, the airport is a superspreader environment. No wonder this thing spreads so easily. I stay away from any crowded area and people who have their masks off or not worn properly. And those people are not just hanging out in airports.”
Anywhere where people are indoors and not wearing masks because they take them off to eat/drink are going to see superspreader events. Omicron simply spreads too quickly.
I don’t think we can even wrap our heads around how easily it is spreading. NYC is seeing some of it already, however, as sports teams, entertainment casts like the Rockettes, SNL, are ALL getting it at the same time. With prior variants, you could have one person in a house get it but no one else. Or one or two on a sports team, and no one else, even though they were in the same lockerroom and planes together.
But now, there are a dozen, two dozen or more all getting it at the same time. 40 people got it at that Wisconsin wedding.
As for severity, all we can do is watch the UK, Norway and Denmark as they have the most cases right now. London is already 80% Omicron. If their hospitals start to fill up, then we’ll know.
“If they are in a nursing home they will come into contact with probably 20 people in a day.”
I just saw a stat that said that Utah nursing homes has only 60% of the residents boosted and just 19% of staff.
What a tragedy.
But the bigger issue is what if a bunch of the staffers all get it at the same time, have to stay home to quarantine. Who will take care of the residents?
We’re going to see this across all of society. The outbreak will essentially be too big. Airline pilots and flight attendants could go down sick in droves leading to flight cancellations during one of the busiest periods in the last 2 years. Could be a shortage of bus drivers or train conductors. Could be the same for firemen, ambuluance drivers.
Grocery stores may have to temporarily close if they have a sizable outbreak and don’t have enough employees to stay open.
Lots of economic disruption is going to occur over the next 4 to 6 weeks, globally.
If we had 2% GDP in Q3 when the Delta hit, what will it be in Q1 when restaurants, shows etc all close, albeit temporarily ? It will go negative again.
Congress better be ready to offer financial assistance to the businesses again.
“Having just flown for the first time in 2 years I was horrified that they are serving snacks on a 2 hour flight. It’s stupid. Fortunately, our plane wasn’t that crowded.”
I wonder how many flights will be superspreader events with Omicron Gary?
We’ve gotten lax. No one removed their masks on a flight in the first months of the pandemic. I know people who flew with goggles on!
“Really old people have lived a long fulfilling life. My old parents want to live their last few years without this nonsense continuing. They gave up beyond getting their vaccines and boosters. Most other old people they know have too.”
What’s “really old”?
Plenty of 50 years olds in this group. They want to “live without this nonsense” too.
Lol.
Listen to yourself.
“I want to live without the nonsense of drunk driving laws. Just let me drive drunk! My body, my choice. Freedom!”
Lol.
“Some state is calling in the national guard to help.”
Ohio has called in the National Guard. Michigan and Wisconsin have asked for FEMA help. I think Indiana might have asked for FEMA help as well.
And this is before Omicron even takes over in the United States.
“If you are vaccinated and boosted, you have nothing to worry about.”
It’s about protecting OTHERS Mike HG.
But I see you’re too much of a jerk to think about anyone else.
This next wave is going to be devastating. Globally. Because so many people are “over it.” But this happened in 1918 too. Later wave was worst than the first because of virus fatigue.
Our poor medical professionals. They didn’t deserve this. They are burned out. Our healthcare system could collapse this winter. Does anyone blame them for quitting?
“flying is no more dangerous than going to a grocery store according to the AARP”
That study wasn’t done on Omicron.
Both flying AND going to a grocery store will be risky in the coming several months. You should wear a medical grade mask going to the store. There are also washable/reusable masks that have filters that block up to 99% of airborne particles if you don’t like wearing an N-95.
Essential workers should make sure they have these masks on at work.
“Yet the airline CEO’s testified this week on Capitol Hill saying wearing masks don’t really do anything on flights. Southwest Airlines CEO this week again under oath to Congress:”
The FAA has a federal mask mandate in place. Same on Metra trains and Amtrak.
They are a private business. They can ban you for your refusal to wear a mask, or not. They are choosing to ban fliers who aren’t cooperating with the rules.
JohnnyU,
“It goes to show the lack rational analysis in policy decisions
It also ignores the long term costs that forcing young children to wear masks has on their development. But screw them right Gary, you just need to worry about yourself.”
Did I say anything about screwing them? I just don’t want to play exponential whack a mole with you: For every point I bring up you bring up 3 unrelated issues in order to avoid addressing the original issue. Even if there are instances of irrational policy decisions that does not prove that all policy decisions are irrational.
Sonies,
“Gary if you still believe these “models” coming out of the UK that have been 100% wrong you’re an idiot… just today someone spoke the truth about the models”
The conclusion about the severity of Omicron was not based on a model: “The study finds no evidence of Omicron having lower severity than Delta, judged by either the proportion of people testing positive who report symptoms, or by the proportion of cases seeking hospital care after infection.”
“ Let’s say for the sake of argument that to be a generally accepted norm it has to be the view of like 90% of the population.”
I don’t believe 90% of the population supports this.
“ Did I say anything about screwing them? I just don’t want to play exponential whack a mole with you: For every point I bring up you bring up 3 unrelated issues in order to avoid addressing the original issue. Even if there are instances of irrational policy decisions that does not prove that all policy decisions are irrational.”
I don’t bring it up, I commented on your statement
Do you disagree with my comment?
So irrational policy decisions are fine if you support them?
“ “I want to live without the nonsense of drunk driving laws. Just let me drive drunk! My body, my choice. Freedom!””
Sabrina Smolette is pro life?
Retiring the pussy hat?
“ They are a private business. They can ban you for your refusal to wear a mask, or not. They are choosing to ban fliers who aren’t cooperating with the rules.”
Can they ban you for not baking a cake?
It’s funny to see idiots use the Market as a rations.
“I don’t believe 90% of the population supports this.”
I didn’t say they did. My question is whether or not maskphobics are saying that they should not be required or expected to cover a part of your body through laws or societal norms? I still don’t have an answer to this very simple question.
“Do you disagree with my comment?
So irrational policy decisions are fine if you support them?”
I’m not interested in getting into a debate about children wearing masks. We can do that later if you like. I was interested in discussing why adults can’t wear masks when it’s so trivial. I never got an answer to that.
And irrational policies are not fine. I only support policies supported by data.
“My question is whether or not maskphobics are saying that they should not be required or expected to cover a part of your body through laws or societal norms?”
“societal norms” are based on where you live. You realize that Illinois was the only State east of the Mississippi to have a mask mandate in place in August – November. I think NY State and California (yes west of the Mississippi) recently re-implemented the mandate over the past two weeks.
However, even NY and California only put them in place for one month not perpetuity.
Even here in Chicago it depends where you go in regards to the mask culture. Maybe half of people wear masks at the local gym and obviously no one wears them at a restaurant or bar.
We have tried the same thing for almost two years and look at the results. It’s clearly not working so what’s the point? And when you say well that’s because people won’t wear them or aren’t getting vaccinated look at Europe who had much higher compliance for both. Still not working.
Look at the people in the US that push these mandates. They don’t follow them when the cameras are off. We have seen it time and time again. So again, why are we doing this or better yet selectively doing it in certain situations?
“And irrational policies are not fine. I only support policies supported by data.”
The problem with “the data” is it’s robotic and doesn’t take into account human behavior hence why the mask policy didn’t work. No one wears masks at home, no one wears them at restaurants and bars when they are eating or drinking, no one wears them in the office, people cover their mouth but not their nose.
Heck look at last week the CEO of Southwest testifies in Congress talking for 3 hours surrounded by dozens if not hundreds of people. The person testifying doesn’t wear a mask and the congressional committee doesn’t wear masks when they are asking questions. Less then a week later said CEO tests positive and two US Senators test positive despite daily testing and masking most but again not all of the day.
So to blame the maskasholes and the like and only say well this study says it does help is dumb because it doesn’t actually take into account human behavior
“So to blame the maskasholes and the like and only say well this study says it does help is dumb because it doesn’t actually take into account human behavior”
Your “explanation” is why there are lockdowns and shutdowns. We know how it spreads. Indoors and maskless. Eventually, to stop the spread, you have to stop being indoor and maskless.
This is where the Netherlands is right now. It didn’t want to shutdown but the virus continued to spread, unabated.
China’s zero-tolerance policy means you, literally, have to stay home for 2 weeks. Or you are in a quarantine hotel.
“Maybe half of people wear masks at the local gym and obviously no one wears them at a restaurant or bar.”
This is absolutely wrong, actually. I always wear a mask at my table when the server is approaching or at the table. Always. My husband and friends do the same. Others do not.
But to say “no one” wears them at a restaurant or bar is just incorrect.
In fact, these out of staters are complaining about Hideout:
https://news.yahoo.com/towners-leave-one-star-yelp-121932897.html
Yelp users with profiles from Texas, Missouri and California are attacking the Hideout with one-star reviews, some aimed at the Chicago bar’s COVID policies.
Why it matters: The one-star reviews appear to be an organized campaign to protest the club’s policy of checking vaccination cards and enforcing the state mask mandate.
“Eventually, to stop the spread, you have to stop being indoor and maskless.”
So we should gather outside for Thanksgiving, Christmas, and NYE? Only nuts are wearing masks indoors at the family gathering.
“China’s zero-tolerance policy means you, literally, have to stay home for 2 weeks. Or you are in a quarantine hotel.”
China is an authoritarian state committing mass genocide against ethnic minorities. You use China as an example? Good lord I thought liberals were so “worried about democracy”.
My question is still not answered and it’s a yes or no question. It’s not hard. Are people saying that they should not be required or expected to cover a part of their body through laws or societal norms?
Societal norms like they have in Iran?
masks are incredibly unpopular and stupid as everyone knows… this is evidenced by literally the day they end the mandates, nobody is wearing them
“Are people saying that they should not be required or expected to cover a part of their body through laws or societal norms?”
Again, the laws are different from state to state, and from county to county or city to city within the same state. So it’s not a yes or no question. The city of Boston requires masks but the Commonwealth of Massachusetts does not.
Rhode Island is instituting a partial mask mandate for venues that have capacity for 250 or more people.
Prior to today, the previous month Washington DC did not have a mask mandate but Federal Properties i.e. white house/congress etc. did.
Further, it is not a “law” it is either a rule/regulation or Executive Order with the only recourse being fines to the business or establishment not enforcing the rule/regulation or Executive Order.
The enforcers of the rule/regulation or Executive Order in Chicago/Illinois is some beauracratic agency – Business Affairs for Chicago who don’t have the manpower to enforce it anyway.
If you look at “societal norms” there are plenty of States’ Attorneys mainly downstate who have openly said they will not enforce the States mandate. So it’s clearly not a “norm” for those areas as those SA are elected by their constituents.
It’s not a binary yes or no.
“It’s not a binary yes or no.”
I don’t understand why this question is so hard. It doesn’t matter whether you agree with different mandates or not. It doesn’t matter that they differ from one place to the next. Either you agree to adhere to the laws and norms or you don’t. I guess if you want another possible answer then it could be “sometimes, depending upon whether or not I agree with them”. But for Christ’s sake answer the question. I’m just trying to understand exactly what your position is and it looks like you don’t have one.
“I don’t understand why this question is so hard. It doesn’t matter whether you agree with different mandates or not. It doesn’t matter that they differ from one place to the next. Either you agree to adhere to the laws and norms or you don’t. I guess if you want another possible answer then it could be “sometimes, depending upon whether or not I agree with them”. But for Christ’s sake answer the question. I’m just trying to understand exactly what your position is and it looks like you don’t have one.”
Because its a poor question.
Its not a societal norm (It may be with the folks you know, but across the country its not).
90% of masking is theater which is why it would be difficult to make it a norm.
Gove Fatass making it an EO, not withstanding
” Either you agree to adhere to the laws and norms”
It’s not a law and is only a norm depending on where you are. In alot of places it is not the norm.
I don’t know where you get that masking is law from. Maybe its law in European countries?
I don’t get what you mean by it being a norm. It’s a norm in certain places. In other places the norm is not masking.
Gary, you’re arguing with people who don’t even live in the state of Illinois.
So, yeah, in Indiana, wearing masks is NOT the norm. Freedom!
“masks are incredibly unpopular and stupid as everyone knows… this is evidenced by literally the day they end the mandates, nobody is wearing them”
Wrong. People in the major cities have been pretty consistent with wearing them. It’s been pretty incredible actually. Not just in Chicago either. Also Los Angeles and New York.
I feel this has to do with simply being around more people versus smaller cities, suburbs or rural areas. In the major cities, you’re taking ubers, public transportation and you’re living in bigger buildings and close quarters. No huge suburban supermarket. You are right next to people all the time in big cities.
It matters.
WP,
“It’s not a law and is only a norm depending on where you are. In alot of places it is not the norm.
I don’t know where you get that masking is law from. Maybe its law in European countries?
I don’t get what you mean by it being a norm. It’s a norm in certain places. In other places the norm is not masking.”
For God’s sake man, where in my question did I say anything about masking? Where did I say what is or isn’t a norm. It’s a general question, the premise of which is that there IS a norm or a law. Forget masking. Think clothing. I just want to know what general principle you adhere to. Do you have the right to refuse to wear clothing? This is logic 101. There are only two logical possibilities. Either you agree in all cases to adhere to laws and norms or you don’t. There is no logical alternative. If something is not a norm or a law then it is outside the scope of the question. If you refuse to adhere if you don’t like it then the answer is a simple NO.
“Wrong. People in the major cities have been pretty consistent with wearing them. It’s been pretty incredible actually. Not just in Chicago either. Also Los Angeles and New York.”
How’s that working out?…..
Gary, you have the right to refuse clothing.
However, in the context of the discussion, masking is not a norm. It is an arbitrary requirement. Given how some urban areas are governed, it may very well become a norm though. In some areas, it will never be a norm.
At this point, we are living in alternate realities. I drove down to Atlanta for Thanksgiving. It is quite eye opening to see how other people in IN, KY, TN, and GA are living normally like C19 didn’t exist. Masked people were a significant minority. The only people I saw masked were employees of large chain stores who likely have some corporate edict they are following. Customers and small businesses DGAF and were maskless.
I don’t begrudge anyone for wanting to wear a mask, but it all seems like kabuki theatre to me. Wearing a mask to enter a restaurant and then removing it to eat like C19 is going to just wait around till you finish your meal beyond stupid to me.
Those who want to be vaccinated have plenty of opportunity to do so. We know which groups are high risk and those people should take precautions as necessary. At this point, c19 is endemic and it is time to move on imho. The case count will never be zero.
If someone doesn’t want to get vaccinated, that is a personal choice. It should be pretty clear by now that vaccines don’t prevent spread or catching it, so not sure I follow the logic of mandates.
“Wrong. People in the major cities have been pretty consistent with wearing them. It’s been pretty incredible actually. Not just in Chicago either. Also Los Angeles and New York.
I feel this has to do with simply being around more people versus smaller cities, suburbs or rural areas. In the major cities, you’re taking ubers, public transportation and you’re living in bigger buildings and close quarters. No huge suburban supermarket. You are right next to people all the time in big cities.”
Did I miss the talking points update in my inbox?
So Is MAGA no longer to blame?
Trusting the science is so confusing
“It is quite eye opening to see how other people in IN, KY, TN, and GA are living normally like C19 didn’t exist.”
Yep. But they’re all dying, right Russ?
Indiana is only 50% vaccinated. Pre-pandemic, they had 1400 ICU beds. They have increased it to about 1800 right now. Could stretch to 2200 but that would mean putting people in conference rooms and in ambulances. But they don’t have the staff to handle that many patients. Their hospital system is breaking down right now.
They are BEGGING people to get vaccinated as 90% in the ICUs are unvaccinated. But no one cares. It’s “over”. We have to learn to live with it.
Indiana has gotten in another 1,000 national guard members to help. What will happen with omicron? Even if just a couple hundred who get omicron need to be hospitalized, they are already at 100% capacity. And heaven forbid you should have some big “event” like a train or plane crash with multiple injuries.
I agree with you on masksw in restaurants Russ. Omicron is too transmissible. It’s dumb to take it off at all inside at this point. Big outbreaks are going to happen in restaurants. And go to a Starbucks right now. Plenty of people sitting inside, maskless. Virus just swirling around the store.
Chicago is going to make you be vaccinated to go inside restaurants but that’s dumb too because Omicron is still hitting those who have been triple vaxxed. Your vaccination status is irrelevant in terms of the spread at this point.
“The case count will never be zero.”
I don’t agree that you should be able to partake of any risky behavior you want during major outbreaks. And this one will be our biggest one yet.
We honestly DID get down near very few hospitalizations over the summer in most of the country. Even cases went down to almost nothing.
But during huge outbreaks, I think we owe it to our hospitals to not have a complete collapse of the healthcare system just because we’re selfish assholes and want to move on.
“How’s that working out?…..”
Better than in Kankakee County WP. Far, far better. How many ICU beds do we have versus them?
“I don’t agree that you should be able to partake of any risky behavior you want during major outbreaks. And this one will be our biggest one yet”
Until Pi…
Though my money is Chi being Da Bomb!!!
“They are BEGGING people to get vaccinated as 90% in the ICUs are unvaccinated.”
90% of covid patients… maybe, which who cares its their choice, just like the choice to not get the flu shot and wind up in the hospital
but anyway… covid patients are about 36% of patients according to this… https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/indiana-covid-19-dashboard-and-map
The ICU’s are at 85% capacity which I would say is pretty normal for this time of year considering more people die in the winter, most hospitals used to run close to 95-100% capacity during the winter months prior to the coof, its how they stay open.
Stop fearmongering, it is unhealthy!
Also stop consuming fear mongering, it is unhealthy!
“We honestly DID get down near very few hospitalizations over the summer in most of the country. Even cases went down to almost nothing. ”
yeah you fucking dumbass, flu and coronaviruses don’t do shit here in northern latitudes in the summertime
never have, never will
if you’re scared of the air you’re breathing stay the fuck home and quit going out to restaurants and bars and thinking you need to enforce stupid ass mask rules like they help or anything
“Gary, you have the right to refuse clothing. ”
——————————————-
Not if you then go outside. You can be arrested for indecent exposure. Also, your going naked doesn’t harm me (I might go blind, but that’s it), whereas unmasked, you’ve significantly increased my chance of catching covid.
In the ’60s and ’70s we used condoms to prevent disease, today, we use masks. Progress, boys and girls! Progress!
“Better than in Kankakee County WP. Far, far better. How many ICU beds do we have versus them?”
Um no…. Chicago has 7% availability; Kankakee County is 6% availability. Downstate in Metro East is actually the best with 26% availability.
The reason Kankakee is doing bad is the number of staffed ICU beds decreased since last December to 133 down 18% whereas Chicago’s staffed ICU beds are only down 7%.
Chicago would actually be doing worse than Kankakee if Kankakee had similar ICU staffing declines as Chicago over the past year
Feel free to try again….
“For example, when comparing a recent four-day stretch to a similar one from December 2020, staffed ICU beds dropped by 18% in the region covering Will and Kankakee counties, meaning nearly 30 fewer ICU beds are staffed now than a year ago.”
“The trend means some hospitals have rooms loaded with equipment but sitting dark.”
“A year later, the hospital’s COVID floor isn’t as swamped. The problem is now seen on other floors, handling all those other patients. They are coming in for the same reasons people sought hospital care before the pandemic, Lopez said. But they’re coming in sicker, often with issues related to those treatment delays of 2020.”
“Hospitals across the country are seeing increases in non-COVID patients, said Dr. Michael Barnett, who teaches health policy and management at Harvard University’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health”
“Sinai, for example, has been seeing about 30% more trauma patients, over the last few months, than it did at the same time last year, Fiorella said. Most of Sinai’s trauma patients are victims of violence; they also include people hurt in car accidents, among other injuries.
Statewide, the average number of non-COVID patients in hospitals during the first two weeks of this month was nearly 25% higher than the same period two years ago, according to a Tribune analysis of state data.
In other words, even if all COVID-19 patients were suddenly cured, Illinois’ hospitals still would be treating far more patients than before the pandemic. Add in the surging numbers of patients with COVID-19, and Illinois hospitals are seeing roughly 40% more patients than in December 2019.”
“Among facilities slowing their intake of transfers is Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago. As of Tuesday, its medical ICU — an ICU unit for patients with problems such as COVID-19, respiratory illnesses and diabetes — had 52 patients despite typically having 42 beds. The extras were put in other ICU units in the hospital.”
“Even if COVID-19 cases ease off, hospitals expect they’ll remain extremely busy with all the other patients they’re now seeing. Nobody can say how long it will be until patient loads settle close to pre-pandemic levels, but health care workers cautioned there is no quick fix”
https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-illinois-hospital-capacity-covid-surge-20211217-hnkjacf5vbbepbo3xyl7x24ymu-story.html
“I want to live without the nonsense of drunk driving laws. Just let me drive drunk! My body, my choice. Freedom!”
Another false equivalency. Everyone has to breathe they have no other option 24 hours a day every single day. People area also near other people almost every day whether they choose to or not.
Driving drunk is an actual choice. Not everyone does drink and most people that do drink typically don’t drive. In the city plenty of people don’t own a vehicle as they choose not to.
“The ICU’s are at 85% capacity which I would say is pretty normal for this time of year considering more people die in the winter, most hospitals used to run close to 95-100% capacity during the winter months prior to the coof, its how they stay open.”
The ICU’s are seeing non-covid patients up 25% compared to pre-covid per the Tribune article I linked above.
Shootings almost doubled this year in the city compared to pre-covid 2019. Those victims don’t walk to the Walgreens in the loop to get some Gauze and bandages as Sabrina thinks.
“if you’re scared of the air you’re breathing stay the fuck home and quit going out to restaurants and bars and thinking you need to enforce stupid ass mask rules like they help or anything”
Sabrina wants 6 shots of Covid and wear 10 masks and then she will come outside. Heck maybe she will start wearing a hazmat suit that automatically sprays Lysol every 5 seconds.
Also, ICU’s wouldn’t be so full if we didn’t have so many illegal immigrants taking up space because they don’t have health insurance.
“Also, ICU’s wouldn’t be so full if we didn’t have so many illegal immigrants taking up space because they don’t have health insurance.”
Illinois already provides health insurance for undocumented seniors aged 65 and older starting last July 2020.
https://ilhousedems.com/2020/06/15/ramirez-champions-measures-expanding-access-to-healthcare-coverage-for-immigrant-senior-citizens-celebrates-gov-pritzker-signing-into-law/
It would probably would have been a good idea to start distributing test kits before the Holidays with “tHE WorSt VArIant eVEr” staring us in the face.
But I guess its more important to leave old Major at a farm and get a new puppy
Good thing they’ve got a plan to beat Covid
Russ,
You do not have the right to refuse clothing. You also don’t have the right to urinate in the street – at least in the US. Violating these laws can get you arrested. And you don’t have the right to not wear a seat belt. Not everyone agrees with these laws or norms yet they comply. Strange to me how masks are different. As the discussion above clearly demonstrates there isn’t a lot of logic and consistency being applied to this position.
The data is already clear. People who lean right are getting hospitalized and dying at a significantly higher rate than people who lean to the left. And it might even be self inflected voter suppression. So be it.
In determining where to retire the behavior and attitudes of people is somewhat of a determinant for us. It helps us rule out TX, TN, and Florida.
As for restaurants…I like servers that are masked. I don’t know where they’ve been or how they behave. And I want the tables spread out. If they are jammed together I’m not eating there. If there are enough people like me then that will determine the standard for restaurant protocols.
Regarding hospitalizations…you can talk all you want about the AVERAGE capacity utilization of the nation and all the other things driving surges in the hospitals. But we’re talking about Covid hospitalizations and there is clear data on this. Do I really need to tell you how to find it? Ohio is nearing another peak in Covid hospitalizations. New Hampshire has hit an all time peak in Covid hospitalizations. There is no denying that it is a problem in parts of the country and it will get worse. People’s so-called PERSONAL decisions will result in the deaths of others.
Wearing a mask is not a norm outside of those at high risk, neurotics, and those that wish for someone to control their lives
https://news.yahoo.com/york-breaks-daily-covid-19-191320050.html
Noted Red State
What’s your point about NY? That that single datapoint invalidates a thorough statistical analysis? https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/12/05/1059828993/data-vaccine-misinformation-trump-counties-covid-death-rate
“Wearing a mask is not a norm outside of those at high risk, neurotics, and those that wish for someone to control their lives”
But it’s often a law or a rule imposed by private businesses.
“But it’s often a law” – So is speeding & Jaywalking. Not a norm
“rule imposed by private businesses” – Not a norm. If it was a norm they wouldnt need to make it a rule
“What’s your point about NY? That that single datapoint invalidates a thorough statistical analysis?”
Correlation and Causation
Right now in Oregon Breakthru deaths account for +/-25% of Covid fatalities Instead of moronic tribal politics, maybe this should be what people should be concentrating on
Gary – Honest question
Do you want to go back to a pre-Covid way of life?
“But it’s often a law or a rule imposed by private businesses.”
Good lord its not a law and no its not often a rule imposed by private businesses….. it’s an executive order/regulation/rule imposed by the government either at the State or Local level not a law or even a rule that private business impose. It’s a government mandate if said government decreed it.
Do you know what a law even is and how something even becomes law? This is basic civics 101.
“That that single datapoint invalidates a thorough statistical analysis?”
I think you are going to want to wait until “the end” whenever that is or looks like before pinning blue vs. red. Plenty of people on the right tried doing the same thing over the first 4/5 months of this last year.
The South and Southwest had delta over the summer which the northeast and midwest largely avoided. Delta started increasing in the northeast/midwest in October.
“I think the Midwest and the Great Plains — which have lower vaccination rates but have not seen a big delta surge — they may very well end up seeing quite a few infections in the weeks and months ahead.””
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/11/16/1056232480/u-s-covid-cases-rising-holidays
“not a norm”
Go back to my original question. I said a norm or a law. Now you can nitpick the difference between a law and an executive order but it’s just semantics. There are penalties for non-compliance. The effect is the same. And for just about every other rule people comply without complaint. Sure, people jaywalk but nobody cares if someone else jaywalks because it doesn’t put them at risk – except when they run in front of your car and expect you to stop for them. Then it’s a problem.
“Honest question. Do you want to go back to a pre-Covid way of life?”
Nothing honest about that question. Why is it even a question? Who doesn’t want to go back?
“Who doesn’t want to go back?”
compliance is only prolonging this nightmare
“Right now in Oregon Breakthru deaths account for +/-25% of Covid fatalities Instead of moronic tribal politics, maybe this should be what people should be concentrating on”
What’s your point? People are concentrating on this. It’s waning immunity from the vaccine and the Delta variant. That’s why we need boosters. Doesn’t mean that the vaccine is ineffective. Maybe people should look at this decision objectively instead of thinking that your tribe should dictate your health decisions.
“compliance is only prolonging this nightmare”
How the hell do you come to that conclusion?
As I’ve said here for the last week, Omicron is going to spread like wildfire. It already is. It will spread through the vaccinated as well. Everyone is going to get it.
But how many of the unvaccinated are going to end up in the hospital or dead? That’s the thing we don’t yet know. If it’s not as severe and fewer get really sick, maybe the hospitals will be saved. But many states are already at 100% capacity from Delta. It doesn’t take much to push them over the hump to collapse.
Restaurant owners in NYC have said that business has dropped over the last week. People are staying home now which is what you WANT to happen.
Think about how quickly it is spreading in coffee shops right now, nationwide. Yikes.
“Ohio is nearing another peak in Covid hospitalizations. New Hampshire has hit an all time peak in Covid hospitalizations. There is no denying that it is a problem in parts of the country and it will get worse. People’s so-called PERSONAL decisions will result in the deaths of others.”
Agreed Gary.
“Go back to my original question. I said a norm or a law. Now you can nitpick the difference between a law and an executive order but it’s just semantics. There are penalties for non-compliance. The effect is the same. And for just about every other rule people comply without complaint. Sure, people jaywalk but nobody cares if someone else jaywalks because it doesn’t put them at risk – except when they run in front of your car and expect you to stop for them. Then it’s a problem.”
Again Gary its not a norm. You’re failing at first principals. Gov Fatfuck needed to issue an EO explicitly because its not a norm
Yeah, no one complains about taxes, abortion, etc, LOL
“Nothing honest about that question. Why is it even a question? Who doesn’t want to go back?”
It was an honest question – there are plenty of individuals that seem to be content living their lives in complete and utter fear.
“What’s your point? People are concentrating on this. It’s waning immunity from the vaccine and the Delta variant. That’s why we need boosters. Doesn’t mean that the vaccine is ineffective. Maybe people should look at this decision objectively instead of thinking that your tribe should dictate your health decisions.”
Yeah, no
The ability for many to have their decisions made by the .gov and the ability to feel morally superior is a heck of a drug for some
“How the hell do you come to that conclusion?”
last I checked we still live in a democracy
“I brought it up because outbreaks HAVE happened on airplanes, especially on international flights. So, yeah, the plane CAN cause an outbreak as it appears to have done on those flights into the Netherlands”
Not according to THE SCIENCE. Per a Defense Department study the risk of catching covid on a packed commercial flight concluded that a person would have to sit next to an infectious passenger for at least 54 HOURS to receive a dangerous dose of the virus through the air.
The below article is dated October 2020. Yes before vaccines were even available. So again, why is Facui, CDC, and Biden continuing to mandate this when THE SCIENCE says its not needed.
“The research that has been completed tends to date to March, before the wearing of masks was widespread.”
“Within the scope of the test, the results showed an overall low exposure risk from aerosolized pathogens like covid-19 on these aircraft,” said Vice Adm. Dee Mewbourne, the deputy commander of the U.S. Transportation Command.”
““Your chances of COVID exposure on a United aircraft are nearly nonexistent, even if your flight is full,” Toby Enqvist, the airline’s chief customer officer, said in a statement”
“The researchers, which included a team from the University of Nebraska, concluded that the virus was removed by the plane’s air filtering systems 15 times as fast as in a typical home and five or six times as fast as what is recommended for hospital operating rooms and patient isolation rooms.”
“The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has said it has investigated about 1,600 cases of infectious people traveling, identifying some 11,000 others who were exposed to the virus as a result. BUT THE AGENCY HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO CONFIRM A CASE OF TRANSMISSION, ”
“Last week, the International Air Transport Association said it was aware of only 44 potential cases of the virus spreading during a flight, comparing that figure with the 1.2 billion passengers who have traveled since the beginning of the year.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/defense-department-study-finds-low-risk-of-coronavirus-infection-through-air-on-a-packed-airline-flight/2020/10/15/e84aa092-0e30-11eb-8a35-237ef1eb2ef7_story.html
“All the stuff you’re linking to about airplanes WP is OLD.”
That’s a completely different world. As we know, Omicron is different. It is 70x more transmissible.
It’s going to spread like wildfire on planes because no one is wearing their mask on the entire flight. They are eating and drinking.
What a nightmare.
And I don’t know about everyone else, but I’m not taking the bus, the train or an Uber right now.
“That’s the thing we don’t yet know”
Yes we do. We have quantifiable data across the world specifically from South Africa demonstrating the risk of hospitalization is significantly lower with Omicron than previous variants.
We now have studies from both South Africa and the UK confirming this as well. Don’t worry Biden still has his travel been on South Africa and countries bordering it…..
“The study found that people with omicron infections had an 80 percent lower chance of being hospitalized, compared to other COVID-19 cases.”
“it appears that with the cases that are seen, we are not seeing a very severe profile of disease,” Anthony Fauci said earlier this month.”
“In fact, it might be — and I underscore might be — less severe as shown by the ratio of hospitalizations per number of new cases,” Fauci added.”
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/586895-south-african-study-finds-omicron-may-be-significantly-less-severe
“And I don’t know about everyone else, but I’m not taking the bus, the train or an Uber right now.”
Cool
Absolutely no one cares
I wonder how all the millennials that eschew cars are going to make it?
“last I checked we still live in a democracy”
Society still has rules sonies. There have been rules and laws enacted for the greater good.
We agree to go through a metal detector and have our bags searched when we fly. For the greater good of the public.
We agree to wear seatbelts. We agree to put our kids in the back seat of cars so they aren’t killed by airbags. We agree to wear helmets on bikes or motorcycles. We agree to wear shoes into grocery stores. We agree that women cannot go topless like men can.
Masks are no different.
Society often decides to regulate certain behaviors for the “good” of the rest. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Otherwise, you have chaos.
“All the stuff you’re linking to about airplanes WP is OLD”
It’s even more relevant now that we have vaccines….
“Omicron is different. It is 70x more transmissible.”
Who cares it causes 80% less hospitalizations. This is a nothing burger…
“It’s going to spread like wildfire on planes”
Didn’t know the ventilation systems on ariplanes changes over night. Wouldn’t it also spread like wildfire in hospitals then given airplanes have better air purification systems…..
“What a nightmare.”
The number of cases doesn’t equal a nightmare….
“And I don’t know about everyone else, but I’m not taking the bus, the train or an Uber right now.”
Cause you are still hiding under your bed after being tripled vaxed and doubled masked. Seems reasonable….
Don’t worry Isreal is launching a second booster shot starting sunday. I’m sure shot number 4 will end all infections…..
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/israel-set-to-offer-fourth-dose-of-covid-19-vaccine-to-people-over-60-1.4761804
“Absolutely no one cares”
Yeah, actually, they do.
Economy is going to get hit HARD over the next 4 to 6 weeks. It is slowing quickly, more quickly than we saw in the fall when GDP was hit by about 5%.
Take my behavior and expand it out globally.
Yikes.
Could have a swift mini-recession. Won’t last 2 quarters so can’t call it a recession but won’t be fun. Should snap back quickly.
Real impact is to business travel again. Conventions being cancelled or companies pulling out for January. Ugh. There was a hotel in New York that had sold out due to a nearby financial conference in mid-January but they’ve lost all of that business.
“Who cares it causes 80% less hospitalizations. This is a nothing burger…”
Hospitals are already full WP. Even 20% of hospitalizations crashes our healthcare system.
Also, you have NO IDEA about hospitalizations. We will know more in about 10 days from the UK, Denmark, Norway.
“Don’t worry Isreal is launching a second booster shot starting sunday. I’m sure shot number 4 will end all infections…..”
They are trying to keep their hospitals open WP. The boosters keep them open because few of them, so far, have ended up hospitalized.
It’s ALWAYS been about keeping the healthcare system operating. ALWAYS.
“Yes we do. We have quantifiable data across the world specifically from South Africa demonstrating the risk of hospitalization is significantly lower with Omicron than previous variants.”
South Africa data tells us nothing. They are younger and mostly not vaccinated.
It does look like it’s less severe, but only UK, Denmark and Norway will tell us. UK has already had deaths from Omicron but it’s not a high number.
The goal is to keep the hospitals open and operating.
“We agree to go through a metal detector and have our bags searched when we fly.”
Trust me I never agreed. I would abolish TSA if I were President. Such security theatre. Every year the Government publishes stories about how ineffective TSA is at stopping anything.
“We agree to wear seatbelts.”
On schoolbuses or any bus for that matter? In a Taxi? on a MotorCycle? On a Train?
“We agree to put our kids in the back seat of cars so they aren’t killed by airbags.”
Until they are what Ten? What’s this have to do with non-medical grade masks?
“We agree to wear helmets on bikes or motorcycles.”
Plenty of people don’t on motorcycles and almost no one does on a bicycle…. but ok.
“We agree to wear shoes into grocery stores.”
Making fashion statements is “agreeing”? Also, do you only wear shoes in grocery stores?
“We agree that women cannot go topless like men can.”
Sexist.
“Masks are no different.”
They are completely different….
“Society often decides to regulate certain behaviors for the “good” of the rest.”
i.e. wealthy white liberals try to push down their thoughts and ideas onto the masses whether they agree or not?
“Otherwise, you have chaos.”
How’s society doing on regulating shootings, carjacking’s, retail theft, and electronic monitoring? Seem like those in power have a different view then the rest of society…
“Yeah, actually, they do.”
Trust me no one cares.
“Economy is going to get hit HARD over the next 4 to 6 weeks. It is slowing quickly, more quickly than we saw in the fall when GDP was hit by about 5%.”
If that happens, Joe Biden should resign. He’s been a complete failure and hE HaD a PlAN!
London recorded 301 new hospital admissions on Dec 20. Peak was 850 a day last winter. If it goes over 400 a day, the government may do a 2-week shutdown to try and bend the curve.
These cases could still be Delta, as we know the delays of hospitalization. But London is nearly all Omicron cases now so going forward, these should be Omicron.
It’s really about sheer numbers. Even if the cases aren’t as severe, if you have 100,000 people being infected a day in London, ultimately, a certain percentage of them are going to go to the hospital. Could still overwhelm the hospitals, as the Danish have warned. Outbreak is just too big.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10335901/Omicron-Covid-hospitalisations-London-just-one-doubling-away-lockdown-threshold.html
“If that happens, Joe Biden should resign. He’s been a complete failure and hE HaD a PlAN!”
Did he resign in the third quarter JohnnyU when GDP fell 5%?
LMFAO.
“Society still has rules sonies. There have been rules and laws enacted for the greater good.”
Yeah like in North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and China. All of their rules and laws are for the greater good.
Also, you support the Mississippi and Texas abortion bans right as they were laws enacted for the greater good of those states just like Pritzker repealed Parental Notification for teenage abortions recently?
“Otherwise, you have chaos.”
Define “chaos” and who in society views it as “chaos”.
As WP’s silliness shows on trying to cast doubt on all the things society asks us to do for the greater good, the anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers and COVID deniers are just, frankly, too stupid to argue with.
People don’t wear helmets when riding bikes or on motorcycles?
Lol.
Okay Boomer.
Time to step away from the computer now. Bingo is about to start.
“Could have a swift mini-recession. Won’t last 2 quarters so can’t call it a recession but won’t be fun. Should snap back quickly.”
Are you betting against America? You sound like Bob the Bear!
“all the things society asks us to do for the greater good, the anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers and COVID deniers are just, frankly, too stupid to argue with.”
So people that don’t see society through your narrow alarmist view aren’t part of society? Maybe just call those people (if they even are human) stupid. Maybe society should just round them up and throw them in an encampment to protect themselves against their own stupidity because “society” knows best.
Do you pay your bills with virtue signaling credits? Are they traded on a distributed ledger like bitcoin? What’s the value of these coins?
“Did he resign in the third quarter JohnnyU when GDP fell 5%?”
He should have, but I guess you’re pro showering with young children?
“So people that don’t see society through your narrow alarmist view aren’t part of society?”
Stop with the craziness WP. You are being silly and stupid. Really, really dumb.
Look, bingo is starting. Run along.
“Are you betting against America? You sound like Bob the Bear!”
Bob the Bear bets against Chicago, which, by the way, just got another 450 corporate Amazon jobs yesterday.
Actually looking at the data and reality in the global economy is NOT being a bear or betting against America.
Economy will be red hot next year. The Fed is going to have to raise rates more swiftly and aggressively than everyone realizes. But this outbreak is going to be a big setback for the next month. The economy has already halted in Europe. The Chinese are doing restrictions and shutdown. Other Asian countries are restricting travel again. Manufacturing will slow again.
US will slow, especially in January.
But the snap back will be swift like we saw this year and last year.
Stop WP. You are silly and deranged now.
Only assholes don’t want to save lives.
Also, science is now showing that masks have saved lives during the pandemic.
They took a look at Missouri. 1900 lives could have been saved.
How tragic.
https://www.kcur.org/health/2021-12-21/science-proves-mask-mandates-save-lives-but-in-missouri-theyre-politically-toxic
“Society still has rules sonies. There have been rules and laws enacted for the greater good. ”
Tyranny has always been sold under the guise as for “the greater good”
It is unbelievably sad how so many people have become brainwashed over the last 2 years… incredibly sad
“Also, you have NO IDEA about hospitalizations. We will know more in about 10 days from the UK, Denmark, Norway.”
strange how you aren’t quoting the data from South Africa where it actually came from and how the spread is over with there
https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/south-africa/
turn off the fucking TV and do something else with your time other than getting that dopamine hit from being scared
“Also, science is now showing that masks have saved lives during the pandemic.
They took a look at Missouri. 1900 lives could have been saved.”
What about the science that didn’t want to get the Vax out in October? 100k lives could have been saved – https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/10/19/1010646/campaign-stop-covid-19-vaccine-trump-election-day/
“How tragic.”
Yes
So now the COVID deniers and anti-vaxxers are arguing that the vaccine, which they said was “rushed” and hasn’t been tested appropriately and has killed thousands of people, should have been put out earlier in order to save lives?
LMFAO.
What aboutism is a bad look for you JohnnyU.
Drinking again, I see
I’m Vax’d and believe in Covid (Not the insane version you do obviously)
Maybe your New Years resolutions should be laying off the wine and dialing back the lying?
By the way, Biden has had the best first year, economically, of any president in the last 50 years.
But it was always going to be like that on the reopen.
Oh, and Trump’s “warning” that the stock market would crash when Biden took office?
Yeah, not so much.
Presidents have little to do with the economy (or the stock market). It’s all luck and demographics. Trump’s mistake was that he thought he could somehow “get” to 4% or 5% annualized GDP but that was impossible with GenX. It’s too small. Can’t get there.
He couldn’t even get 5% in a single quarter even with the largest corporate tax cut in history and record low unemployment.
The next time the economy will get to 4% or 5% annualized GDP (in “normal” economic conditions outside of a pandemic) will be in the mid 2030s. That will be when the largest group of Millennials reach “peak earnings.” Similar to when the Baby Boomers reached “peak” earnings in their mid-40s in the late 1990s. GDP did over 4% annualized then.
Demographics are an amazing thing.
Once again, JohnnyU has to call me a drunk to make a point.
It’s old, JohnnyU. If you don’t have any argument, you don’t have any argument. Give it up already.
Let’s talk about something that is relevant, shall we?
Chicago hot housing market.
Sizzle.
South Africa isn’t as relevant sonies. Much younger population (average is like 28) and not as many vaxxed.
I prefer to use Europe’s data as it matches US population statistics in a more meaningful way.
“It is unbelievably sad how so many people have become brainwashed over the last 2 years… incredibly sad”
Masks are “tyranny” now?
Is it tyranny that you must wear your glasses or contacts to operate an automobile?
That you cannot smoke on an airplane?
That you must buy automobile insurance?
I guess in your definition, it is sonies.
How sad that the MAGAs have no desire to actually live in a society where we are all in it together and actually look out for each other.
Let’s drive cars in the bike lanes. Let’s swim when it’s a red flag. Let’s go camping and light fires during Santa Ana warnings.
Tyranny!
MAGAs are nuts. Thank goodness there are far more non-MAGAs than MAGAs. Unfortunately, it’s the MAGAs who are dying right now. So sad. It didn’t have to be like this. Even Trump has been triple vaxxed! Even he realizes the vaccines work and have saved millions of lives.
Here’s the MAGA tragedy out of Ohio. But it’s happening in Illinois, Indiana and everywhere else.
https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/politics/2021/12/14/ohio-counties-trump-won-big-die-2-3-times-faster-covid-vaccination-rates-partisanship/6446852001/
Residents of Ohio counties that voted 80% or better for Donald Trump are dying of COVID 2.3 times more often than counties Joe Biden won, according to the Beacon Journal’s county-level analysis of 2020 election results and deaths since July 1, as reported by the Ohio Department of Health.
Partisan opinions on vaccines, the media and public health are now measurable proxies for who lives and dies.
“Once again, JohnnyU has to call me a drunk to make a point.
It’s old, JohnnyU. If you don’t have any argument, you don’t have any argument. Give it up already.”
Maybe start by laying off the outright lying and gaslighting? Then I’ll believe that you arent posting drunk
“Let’s talk about something that is relevant, shall we?
Chicago hot housing market.
Sizzle.”
Melba Toast
“They took a look at Missouri. 1900 lives could have been saved”
Did you read your own article? You can’t eat and drink with a mask on. How would a mask mandate have done anything if they tracked people going to restaurants and bars after Cardinals games? Correlation does not equal causation….
Most importantly, although the study says it accounted for vaccination rates the Cardinals home opening weekend was April 8 – 11. Covid Vaccine eligibility in Misouri wasn’t opened up to everyone until April 9.
The article explicitly states that during the study there was no mask mandate in St. Louis or St. Louis County at the time of the actual study. So what are they comparing this to? Yet, the strangely quote a St. Louis Public Health Department person saying that they wouldn’t comment on the mask mandate study but just said masks work.
This study and article is severely flawed and biased.
https://www.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2021/03/18/covid-vaccine-missouri-phase-eligibility-all-residents-gov-mike-parson/4755855001/
“So now the COVID deniers and anti-vaxxers are arguing that the vaccine, which they said was “rushed” and hasn’t been tested appropriately and has killed thousands of people, should have been put out earlier in order to save lives?”
Anti-Vaxxers like Kamala Harris who publicly stated they won’t take the “Trump vaccine”?
“I prefer to use Europe’s data as it matches US population statistics in a more meaningful way.”
UK Study: “The Omicron coronavirus variant is causing a milder disease than the Delta strain in most Britons, U.K. government scientists are set to conclude. The U.K. Health Security Agency is due to publish its early real-world data on the severity of the disease before Christmas”
“More people are likely to have a mild illness with less serious symptoms — probably in part due to Britain’s large number of vaccinated and previously infected people, and possibly because Omicron may be intrinsically milder.”
“A new paper has been released by experts in South Africa that offers similar conclusions to what the UKHSA will announce this week. The FT’s John Burn-Murdoch says the South African paper suggests people with Omicron are “markedly less likely to be hospitalized,”
https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/london-playbook/scoop-omicron-milder-in-uk-new-years-fireworks-liz-vs-no-10/
“Maybe start by laying off the outright lying and gaslighting?”
I’m gaslighting?
LOL.
I posted the data JohnnyU. Where’s your data? Where’s your data showing Chicago is doomed?
I actually posted the real sales in Chicago in November which showed them at 15 year highs.
I actually posted the data about Millennials getting mortgages.
There’s data out almost every day that the Millennials are driving this housing market.
Where’s your data showing they are not? Where’s the data showing that all those condos aren’t selling?
There isn’t any.
This blog was so much more fun when the bears actually DID have an argument that Chicago’s market was slow or sucked. But there is no such argument right now and hasn’t been for about 16 months.
Should slow in 2022 though if there isn’t enough inventory. You can’t buy what isn’t on the market. Although I’m shocked that that hasn’t happened yet in 2021. What is everyone buying? Inventory is nearly non-existent. However, there are at least 2 big buildings that are closing on units so that will boost condo sales by about 50 to 75, give or take. But that’s not enough to take over the market by any means.
Imagine if we actually had 10+ condo towers all selling moderately priced new product closing at the same time?
“Anti-Vaxxers like Kamala Harris who publicly stated they won’t take the “Trump vaccine”?”
This again WP?
You and Gary just had an extended exchange about this. She never said she wouldn’t take the vaccine. She said she wouldn’t take it until it was properly vetted by the FDA and CDC.
You KNOW this. Gary just posted her exact quote. Stop the silliness.
Trump was just booed by the MAGAs when he said he got the booster. WTF.
It’s so sad. It’s like a Greek tragedy. But, unfortunately, our health care professionals have to deal with this nightmare every day. They’re the ones who have to tell the families their loved one has died.
Prayers.
“Is it tyranny that you must wear your glasses or contacts to operate an automobile?”
Huh? Where do you get this from?
“How sad that the MAGAs have no desire to actually live in a society where we are all in it together and actually look out for each other.”
I think people that don’t share your point of view would argue that they are actually looking out for each other not just hiding under the bed after a headline.
“Thank goodness there are far more non-MAGAs than MAGAs.”
Odd conclusion.
“Even Trump has been triple vaxxed!. Even he realizes the vaccines work and have saved millions of lives.”
Or is your conclusion now that Trump is a “non-MAGA”?
“Residents of Ohio counties that voted 80% or better for Donald Trump are dying of COVID 2.3 times more often than counties Joe Biden won,”
Again correlation does not equal causation. Does ones age effect the likelihood of dying by Covid? If so, Joe Biden winning 65% of the 18 – 29 vote might effect your study no? Based on voter age Trump won a majority of voters >50 whereas Biden won the majority of voters <50.
Is your study adjusted for this?
“But, unfortunately, our health care professionals have to deal with this nightmare every day.”
Yet Joe Biden is trying to fire the 30% of health care workers who aren’t fully vaccinated. Your right they shouldn’t have to deal with this uncertainty every single day after the same people said they are “heroes” when they were used as political props and that same politician is trying to discard them in the trash….
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/covid-19-30-of-healthcare-personnel-in-us-hospitals-remain-unvaccinated
“ There’s data out almost every day that the Millennials are driving this housing market.
Where’s your data showing they are not? Where’s the data showing that all those condos aren’t selling?”
Dummy, I posted the loan numbers from the source document. Millennials are responsible for 51% of loan APPLICATIONS. Again this is from the source document
Again, I haven’t said “nothings selling” (gaslighting). I have stated that appreciation has been terrible. That to me isn’t HAWT ™. It seems really odd that with low supply and high demand there’s been pathetic appreciation in the green zone.
You can’t help yourself.
“ “Is it tyranny that you must wear your glasses or contacts to operate an automobile?””
Nice non sequitur
“Partisan opinions on vaccines, the media and public health are now measurable proxies for who lives and dies.”
The most loathsome and untrustworthy people are the ones pushing the vaccine mandates the hardest. Few in the city of chicago trust or respect lori to let her clean their toilet but she feels compelled to force one, two, three and soon enough, four shots of a vaccine that doesn’t stop or prevent transmission of covid-19. The more our institutions repeat the same talking points and lies (remember this whopper: can’t catch covid, can’t spread covid)…unvaxxed see the institutions pushing the vaccines like the russian peasant viewed the 1960’s communist regime.
Most unvaxxed I know are waiting for a vaccine with a scientifically proven efficacy, that prevents transmission, with an honest disclosure of side effects, that honest and trustworthy people – especially apolitical people – can stand behind. The Novamax vaccine is looking promising it was just approved in Europe and has a strong track record of delivery with the shingles and hepatitus vaccine. Phase two showed 90% prevention of symptomatic disease. Now that’s what a vaccine is supposed to be..I know a lot of people who will be waiting in line for this vax…
“Most unvaxxed I know are waiting for a vaccine with a scientifically proven efficacy, that prevents transmission, with an honest disclosure of side effects, that honest and trustworthy people.”
Why didn’t you get the JNJ HD?
That’s the “old” style vaccine, like Novavax’s vaccine. It prevented transmission in the early mutations. But, obviously, not now.
Novavax is WAY behind. It tried to get its RSV vaccine approved for years. Made it to Phase 3 twice but failed both times, which is too bad as it would have saved a lot of lives.
It’s better than nothing, however, and it’s great that we are making new vaccines and coming up with new treatments. The Pfizer and Merck pills are also a game changer. However, you have to take them right away upon having symptoms, which could be an issue for many as people wait until symptoms get “bad” before seeking help.
We have the tools to get back to “normal” in 2022 but people have to get the vaccinations and take the approved treatments or we’re going to keep having further disruptive, and deadly, outbreaks.
“Dummy, I posted the loan numbers from the source document. Millennials are responsible for 51% of loan APPLICATIONS. Again this is from the source document”
Millennials are responsible for 67% of all first time mortgages and 37% of repeats. Probably where you get 51%.
If 51% isn’t the majority, then maybe I’m missing something?
Lol.
Again, the Millennials are driving this market now and will for the next several years. It’s the circle of life. The Boomers drove the 1980s and 90s housing markets by their sheer numbers and now the Millennials are doing the same thing.
November new home sales up strongly year-over-year. The desire to own is not abating.
And the bears on this blog have never provided any data or anything to back up why Chicago is “doomed” or even Illinois, for that matter.
The J&J shot is no longer recommended by the CDC. Causes rare but fatal blot clots.
As for covid-19 vaccination by political affiliation, this isn’t true either. Political affiliation is a factor but much less of a factor than age:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10340001/Americas-vaccine-holdouts-arent-Republicans-theyre-people-65.html
“America’s biggest vaccine holdouts aren’t Republicans – they’re young people who think COVID only poses a risk to the elderly, new data analysis finds
Americans who’ve avoided getting a COVID vaccine are more likely to have done so because they’re young, and not because they’re right wing, recent data analysis has found.
Professor Anthony DiMaggio, who works in the political science department at Lehigh University, said the contrast in vaccination updates between Americans aged over 65 and under was far more marked than the difference in shot uptake between Democrats and Republicans.
One of the sets of data analysis that DiMaggio analyzed, from Pew University, found that just 66 per cent of Americans aged 18 and 29 had received at least one COVID vaccine dose when polled over the summer.”
“Americans who’ve avoided getting a COVID vaccine are more likely to have done so because they’re young, and not because they’re right wing, recent data analysis has found.”
Maybe young people in rural areas???
Because in Lakeview and other “young” zip codes in Chicago it breaks down like this:
Zip code 60610 with 2 dose vaccination:
12+: 72.7%
18+: 72.2%
65+: 85.7%
All of these are much higher than what the 2 doses are for the 12+ or the 18+ in the Trump counties. Age isn’t the factor. It’s whether or not you watch Fox News and listen to the conspiracies on Facebook (or your parents do).
You could have gotten the JNJ vaccine for a year up until last week HD. Why wouldn’t you? It’s the “old-style” vaccine which has been around for decades.
But no, you wouldn’t take that one either.
By the way, just found out that the Pfizer pill regiment includes taking 6 pills every day, 3 in the morning and 3 at night. It also conflicts with some other drugs so not everyone will be able to take it.
Why wouldn’t you just get the vaccine then? My god. It’s so much easier and safer.
But thankfully our scientists are still out there trying to come up with other treatments and the like. They are crushing it during this pandemic. Their breakthrough with the mRNA vaccines is going to lead to a lot of treatment for other illnesses and disease.
What a time to be alive.
Homedelete,
““America’s biggest vaccine holdouts aren’t Republicans – they’re young people who think COVID only poses a risk to the elderly, new data analysis finds”
This line and the headline are totally disingenuous given the actual data shown in the article. Obviously this is a multivariate problem and age is a huge factor but that doesn’t mean that party isn’t. Look at that table that breaks it down by age and party. There is only a 20 point difference between the youngest and oldest age bracket. But within the youngest group there is a 36 point difference between the two parties. Seriously.
Let’s not forget that a recent MAGA crowd booed their own Messiah when he recently announced that he got the booster.
How can anyone see this data and conclude that party isn’t a huge factor?
WP,
“Not according to THE SCIENCE. Per a Defense Department study the risk of catching covid on a packed commercial flight concluded that a person would have to sit next to an infectious passenger for at least 54 HOURS to receive a dangerous dose of the virus through the air.”
Sure you can find studies that confirm your beliefs but there are just as many studies and articles that contradict that. WSJ Sept 29: What Science Knows Now About the Risk of Covid-19 Transmission on Planes. They say that the problem occurs when everyone on the plane has their masks off at the same time. Duh! I previously linked to a TED talk that showed how vapors spread on a plane. And here is a study that was done about the transmission of Covid on a flight to Japan: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/irv.12913
Sonies,
““How the hell do you come to that conclusion?”
last I checked we still live in a democracy”
That statement does not in the least explain how compliance with Covid protocols will prolong the pandemic.
JohnnyU,
““Nothing honest about that question. Why is it even a question? Who doesn’t want to go back?”
It was an honest question – there are plenty of individuals that seem to be content living their lives in complete and utter fear.”
That statement smacks of the moral superiority you’re complaining about. First, I don’t know anyone living in complete and utter fear nor do I know anyone that likes where we are. Of course, I can understand how believing this makes it easy to dismiss people that disagree with you and allows you to feel superior.
“ How can anyone see this data and conclude that party isn’t a huge factor?”
You know darn well the biggest vaccine breakdown difference is age and race. Young black Americans are far less vaccinated than their Asian, white, and Latino counterparts. In fact, only half of black Chicago adults have even 1 shot.
Mike HG,
Are you disputing any of the data in the article posted by Homedelete? Did I misstate any of the facts from that article? The data speaks for itself. Interesting that you made a claim without providing any data. Does the data even matter to you? Well, here is some for you. The difference between whites and blacks is smaller than the difference between Republicans and Democrats. Those are the facts. However, if you choose to live in an alternate reality…
https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-by-race-ethnicity/