Studio Dwell Designed Units at 1919 W. Crystal in Wicker Park Are Now Bank Owned
This contemporary new construction building at 1919 W. Crystal in Wicker Park was designed by Studio Dwell.
Studio Dwell are architects who are a favorite in Chicago among those seeking contemporary design.
Sales commenced in the 9-unit building in 2007.
Several units sold in 2009 and the last sale was apparently in October 2010.
6 out of the 9 units have now sold.
Recently, the 3 remaining units came back on the market at further reduced prices and the listing now says they are “bank owned.”
Here is a history of prior sales in the building in the order in which they sold:
- #202: 2 bedroom/2 baths, 1633 square feet, sold in August 2009 for $590,000
- #104: 3 bedroom/2 baths, 2195 square feet, sold in September 2009 for $650,000
- #101: 3 bedroom/2 baths, 2125 square feet, sold in October 2009 for $665,000
- #205: 2 bedroom/2 baths, 1725 square feet, sold in February 2010 for $550,000
- #204: 2 bedroom/2 baths, 1725 square feet, sold in March 2010 for $570,000
- #201: 2 bedroom/2 baths, 1725 square feet, sold in October 2010 for $480,000
The three remaining units are listed at the following:
- #103: 3 bedroom/2 baths, 2125 square feet- now listed at $549,000
- #102: 3 bedroom/2 baths, 2125 square feet- now listed at $549,000
- #203: 2 bedroom/2 baths, 1725 square feet- now listed at $489,000 (parking $15k extra)
The units were originally listed for much higher.
They are duplex units with upscale finishes.
For Unit #103, 2 of the 3 bedrooms are on the main level with the 3rd bedroom on the second.
The kitchen has Arclinea cabinets, caesarstone and granite counter tops, and Subzero and Miele appliances.
The bathrooms are limestone and marble.
Are these now a steal given the finishes and the prior sales prices of the other units?
Samuel Tarara at Koenig Strey Real Living has the listings. See some pictures here.
Unit #103: 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, 2125 square feet
- Originally listed in March 2007 for $799,000
- Many price reductions
- Listed in March 2010 at $650,000
- Reduced
- Listing says it is “bank owned”
- Public records show a “special warranty deed” in December 2010
- Currently listed at $549,000 (is parking extra or included? One of the other listings says it is $15k.)
- Assessments of $180 a month
- Taxes are “new”
- Central Air
- Washer/Dryer in the unit
- Bedroom #1: 16×12 (second floor)
- Bedroom #2: 10×11 (main level)
- Bedroom #3: 14×11 (main level)
•#101: 3 bedroom/2 baths, 2125 square feet, sold in October 2009 for $665,000
With the same unit now selling for $549,000 or lower, the owners of unit 101 have got to be kicking themselves for “buying now or be priced out forever”.
“With the same unit now selling for $549,000 or lower, the owners of unit 101 have got to be kicking themselves for “buying now or be priced out forever”
I was thinking the same thing and also thinking how hard it must be for them to deal with that (psychologically) every day – but then I thought (because the exact same thing happened/happening with my in-town) that the people who purchased earlier at a higher price should look at the bright side (I did and it worked for me):
1. they have enjoyed their unit for the past 1.5 years – before which who knows where they were – that is 1.5 years of their life they are not going to get back and 1.5 years of time they “saved” by not looking for new properties or worrying about where they are going to live.
2. They have had 1.5 years longer to make it their home – they should think of the friends/outings they have made/had during that time – things that would likely not have happened had they not moved.
3. They should view this as a good test their coping skills and learn how to better to deal with such disappointments (because God know that life is full of them). They will be much more mature once this is over.
There’s just no way I could get over paying $116k more than my neighbor for the same condo. It would dig at me everyday and I would feel like a business failure. I could get over $30 or $40k but not $100k plus. I’d probably really resent the neighbor…. not a strong character trait, but I just would.
Residential real estate wasn’t always an investment vehicle enjoying significant appreciation. Home prices in Oak Park/River Forest, for instance, increased by small increments between 20s and early 70s, with slight appreciation in home prices despite true growth in wage earnings. A home constructed in 20s for $30,000, for instance, could have been foreclosed in 30s and resold by bank for $15,000, and be resold in early 70s for $40,000. OPRF Historical Society maintains a real estate file with this type of pricing information for certain individual homes, including mine. (My parents bought a bungalow in West Ridge in 1963 for probably near same pricing as its original construction cost in 1920s.)
The decade-long rapid and seemingly reliable appreciation in residential real estate prices was the “black swan” condition not likely to be reoccur. Purchase price stability will be keenly monitored by homeowners aware that property appraisal valuation may decline as easily as increase in ensuing years. 18 months of “home-ownership enjoyment” is cold comfort for perceived $100,000+ loss in value due to near-identical comp’s 2011 pricing.
Once again clio….thanks for the good laugh of the day…see points #1-3 above.
Priceless psychological advice!!
I am with Chris…while not one of my traits (that I am aware of) everytime I’d walk past my neighbor, the price difference would pop back into my head and would ruin my day.
“I am with Chris…while not one of my traits (that I am aware of) everytime I’d walk past my neighbor, the price difference would pop back into my head and would ruin my day.”
Well then – you need to grow up.
sawny – couldn’t have put it better…..
In all likelihood they paid 100K over. Notice the crappy sliding door in the kitchen….that looks cheap. I bet the earlier units had built in Arclinea cabinetry there. This was probably a cheap substitute, among many, in the unit. The earlier units are finished nicer though not enough to justify the price difference. To make this unit upscale, I bet the owner really needs to add 25K back in…get rid of those crappy kitchen doors ruining the Arclinea kitchen.
The virtue of a little patience was lost on the 09/10 buyers.
I do feel bad for the people that bought #101 in October 2009. They weren’t buyig into a bubble and probably thought the worst was behind them. And then the value of their home drops 20% in little over a year. Facts like that make me wonder if even rent-own parity would be enough to make people want to rent instead of own. Even with parity, risk averse people may still seek to rent to avoid the possibility of price declines (at least over the short run until prices have clearly stabilized).
As for Clio’s #1 and #2, you can get those benefits by renting in the area, which is especially easy to do somewhere like Wicker Park. And for #3 most people face enough adversity to learn coping skills without needing to lose 20 percent on their home.
100K+ is a hard pill to swallow. It gets even worse when you project the interest over 30 years, if you make the jump that both buyers put 100K as a down payment. The higher priced neighbor will end up paying around $270,000 more in interest. So now we are well within the $370,000+ more for a similiar unit in the same building when projected over 30 years.
Now I am not saying that I wouldn’t hang out with my neighor, but he better think twice before casually voting for an increase in assessments.
wow these units are extremely beautiful… While I’m not a huge fan of the open area of a duplex up, I think this is tastefully done. And at $250 a sqft seems like a pretty ok deal I guess. I do like the area to visit as I have many friends that live around here but I’m, not sure how I’d like living there though
This situation is not that different from many buildings around the city.
The Silver
SoNo
The Vetro
Just a few examples. People paid $100k or more, in some cases, when they bought in those buildings- before the 30% price reductions.
“Facts like that make me wonder if even rent-own parity would be enough to make people want to rent instead of own.”
What many people on this site don’t understand is that renting as a family is REALLY REALLY difficult. Most of you appear to be young, single or newly married. Mobility is much easier – but think about it. If you have 2-3 kids, you need to find a 3-4 bedroom rental. That is going to be a fairly big place and is going to cost a lot. More importantly, you will spend a lot more money furnishing it and making it a home….. now think about the insecurity of renting. What if the owner wants to sell the next year or two years down the road. Now you are stuck with:
A. Finding another suitable place to live. Remember, you may be limited because of schools, children’s friends
B. moving a ton of furniture/junk
C. uprooting your family – psychologically detrimental
For all of these reasons, once you get married and have a family – the VAST majority WILL ABSOLUTELY buy (even if it costs more) – it will be definitely worth it to them.
“C. uprooting your family – psychologically detrimental”
Which is it? Should we “grow up” and deny the psychological effects of our decisions or give in to psychology and be worried about how I will feel when I make a decision?
Do you not see how completely contradictory your advice is?
Let me see if I have this straight…
Buy a unit for a grossly inflated price then realize later that the price was way too high and your neighbors later bought at a much lower price? Suck it up. Life is hard, and you don’t always win. Be a man and don’t let it affect you psychologically.
Rent a unit? The psychological effects will be devastating. You will live in constant worry that you’ll be kicked out and have to move. Uprooting your family will further pile on your psychological troubles.
Buy a unit and the market price of that unit drops below the mortgage price? Whatever you do, don’t consider bankruptcy or walking away. The psychological effects will destroy you. You will be considered less than a man and will be forced to deal with those feelings every day.
Now why, oh why, would I apply psychology so haphazardly to my decision making? It wouldn’t have anything to do with keeping up RE prices would it?
I’ll agree with clio to a point here: it’s hard to find a stable, long term larger rental in GZ. I think I’d have more luck a bit farther out from GZ and known great CPS elementary schools.
I’ll admit I haven’t looked into renting in a burb yet. Perhaps this could end up being more common (I did go to high school with a friend whose family rented the same house in a western burb for 9 years, moving in ’99.
“I think I’d have more luck a bit farther out from GZ and known great CPS elementary schools.”
Hey, Wicker, you posted a while ago that you’d heard some misgivings about Pulaski? Anything of any detail that you can share?
TftinChi- do you honestly think that I believe what I say here will affect Chicago real estate prices?!! I am not that disillusioned about my power.
However, everything I have written is 100% true. Bankruptcy or walking away are solutions – but not ideal. Seriously, talk to anyone who has undergone bankruptcy or short sale/foreclosure – most of their lives (personal, social) have taken big hits. It is not that easy….. I wish there was someone on this site that has undergone either bankruptcy or foreclosure/short sales so they can back me up on this.
“Do you not see how completely contradictory your advice is?”
I don’t see how it is at all – Clio very separate, but valid points. He was simply stating that disliking or holding a grudge against one’s neighbor bc they bought a unit cheaper than you did is not necessarily the most mature way to act, hence the ‘grow up’. I agree with that. It’s not a neighbor’s fault if he got a better deal. life goes on.
I think his advice on looking at the upside ( though it may be small ) , is a good way to deal with such a big financial kick in the cajones. He’s also right that renting with a big family gets pretty darn expensive, and a lot of families buy for this reason. This is obviously relative and depends on neighborhood, location, job stability, etc, but has classically been why families buy a place. Now, before i get flamed on about the real estate market, how many families lost their homes , or how expensive home ownership can be – i’m in agreeance that i know all of these are harsh realities for many families who bought homes, but from what i’ve seen, married professionals often still prefer to buy than rent, especially when ‘laying down roots’ and settling somewhere long term.
So yeah, i don’t see how what he says is contradictory at all. Let’s try and be objective here people.
Clio, tftinChi’s point is that you completely contradict yourself, using the argument for the power of psychology, in any context, in order to strengthen the argument of that moment. Borderline pandering.
When he calls you out, you bring up a strawman comment about not having the power to “affect chicago real estate prices.” No one said you did. He/We/They are just saying your arguments contradict each other which gives you very little credibility for anyone who can think for themselves.
Riz: I’m not saying that anyone should ignore psychology in their decision making process. I think it is a really good idea to do so, to be honest. Some people are just not going to handle the negative effects of making hard decisions well. So from that angle, I agree with Clio on certain points, even if I think he overstates them.
However, I find the inconsistency in how that advice is applied appalling. In nearly every circumstance, it is applied in a way to convince people to stay in their homes or buy a property. When such advice is dished out in that manner, it fails to be good advice that people should consider before making a decision and instead becomes an agenda pushing excuse. Not only that, but it is given in absolutes. It isn’t “you should think about whether you will be happy if you go through with bankruptcy.” It is: “bankruptcy will devastate you emotionally.” (Excuse my paraphrasing and hyperbole.)
If we are going to use psychology as an input into our decision making, we should use it consistently. The psychology of overpaying for real estate in a rush to “buy now or be priced our forever” will have effects on you, just as it would if you walked away from a home.
“Which is it? Should we “grow up” and deny the psychological effects of our decisions or give in to psychology and be worried about how I will feel when I make a decision?
Do you not see how completely contradictory your advice is?”
HUH? The two have nothing to do with one another. One (toughing it out when life hands you a lemon) has to do with personal coping skills. The other (making sure your family is stable and taken care of) has to do with normal healthy concern for your family.
I thought Sawny said to “grow up” not Clio?
sorry but this needs a repost cuz its plain out awesone;
“Let me see if I have this straight…
Buy a unit for a grossly inflated price then realize later that the price was way too high and your neighbors later bought at a much lower price? Suck it up. Life is hard, and you don’t always win. Be a man and don’t let it affect you psychologically.
Rent a unit? The psychological effects will be devastating. You will live in constant worry that you’ll be kicked out and have to move. Uprooting your family will further pile on your psychological troubles.
Buy a unit and the market price of that unit drops below the mortgage price? Whatever you do, don’t consider bankruptcy or walking away. The psychological effects will destroy you. You will be considered less than a man and will be forced to deal with those feelings every day.
Now why, oh why, would I apply psychology so haphazardly to my decision making? It wouldn’t have anything to do with keeping up RE prices would it?”
My family presently rents in the suburbs. Wish I could say we were smart enough to see the bubble coming, but the truth is the bubble was so crazy that every place we put a bid on either the seller wouldn’t move on their price or we got outbid.
So it wasn’t meant to be and we have been renting for the past 3 years. To Clio’s point we are not trying to locate a 4 bedroom to rent instead of a 3 bedroom and finding the pickings for a less than $2,000 place a month very slim. (At least North Shore with New Trier Schools)
I am a person who bought my new surburban townhome in late 2007 for $100K more than the new ones being built now right NEXT to me (same units, similiar finishes). It’s a sting that can really eat at me IF I let it. It is not my neighbor’s fault that they can buy the same home for $100K less, however, so it’s crazy to blame it on them. I just have to accept reality and move ahead and thank my lucky stars that I put enough money down and am not underwater.
Does it upset me that my $100K (more like $140K after the updates I did after moving in) literally evaporated? Yep, it really sucks, but I am just grateful that I have a good job and the ability to move forward. I bought a weekend condo in the city in 2010 at what I think was a pretty “bottom” price.
What will be interesting to see is what the tax man has to say next year. How will they possibly assess the new townhome unit vs. my unit?
“HUH? The two have nothing to do with one another. One (toughing it out when life hands you a lemon) has to do with personal coping skills. The other (making sure your family is stable and taken care of) has to do with normal healthy concern for your family.”
They all involve decision making. Should I buy a house (or be priced out forever) and can I deal with the effects if that doesn’t pan out? Should I rent and can I deal with the negative outcomes in that decision? Should I stay in or walk away from my home and can I deal with those situations?
Yes, when life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. But all of these involve big, difficult life choices and psychology plays a part in all of them.
“However, I find the inconsistency in how that advice is applied appalling. In nearly every circumstance, it is applied in a way to convince people to stay in their homes or buy a property”
Well, no – I think that renting makes a LOT of sense in many circumstances:
1. Single people who are not yet married but want to get married
2. People with job or location uncertainty.
3. People with serious financial commitments/constraints
4. Married couples or singles (who are not looking to get married) who have not yet decided what neighborhood they would like to set roots
This encompasses a LOT of people out there.
I’m not sure why everyone always feels the need to belittle Clio for trying to put a positive spin on things…I believe he is right about many things. Sometimes the pleasure of finding a home that you are joyful about overrides the importance of a dollar measure. Most of us who are raising children would understand the hardship of a rental…what if my kid wants to tack up another poster of Justin Beiber on the wall? What if we have to move/pack/adjust AGAIN next year? I find no inconsistency with Clio’s statements…he’s really just saying that if you already bought at an inopportune time, continue to love what made you choose your home in the first place, enjoy your life and don’t waste it by carrying around such anger about something that you have no control over! If you haven’t already laid down a down payment…be careful. It seems like a smart way of living…and happier, too!
I think these places are great. Modern, big, heated garage, in fun location and short walk to blue line. Sounds like reputable builder also. Curious where they were originally offered in 2007. Unfortunately, I don’t think I could live without refrigerator.
DZ – sorry I missed the note. I have two sets of friends in the immediate area w/ kids in pre-k and k. Pulaski’s pre-k doesn’t guarantee admin into K or the IB, the gifted program is for native spanish speakers only, and there is a real rift between the two in the building.
They did say that during visits there was mention of removing the Spanish requirement as the enrollment is down.
Positives abound in terms of turnaround with a new Friends of Pulaski group, the Principal is behind the IB push, and a lot of attention on the incoming classes.
There’s no reasons to be upset because your neighbor got a ‘deal’. If you can afford your mortgage, both at the time you bought your home, and now, then be quiet and enjoy your wonderful place to live. You should be happy your future neighbors will get even better deals than the neighbors who bought yesterday, or even today. The neighbors who buy next week will get better deals than those who even buy tomorrow!
Isn’t that what it’s all about? Getting a deal? You got a ‘deal’ and why be resentful if your neighbor got a better ‘deal’? Seems awfully hypocritical, right?
And how much is gonna sting when these don’t actually go for $549, they go for $500. So now someone got the same unit as you for $149k less.
“Well then – you need to grow up.”
Yes. Explain more to us this philosophy of growing up that you have embraced while making snarky comments in a comment section. I’d like to subscribe to this newsletter of self improvement you’ve developed.
Because there’s nothing immature about being upset about losing $100k.
Unique units and I like. I bet they couldn’t get them sold as they were priced into the “no man’s land” in regards to jumbo financing.
It may be off the beaten path for the typical buyers who can put the downstroke required for units in this price point. I’d much prefer these units than some of other McCrap Box stuff around LP/LV.
Oh, and I like the design a lot. But that kitchen looks non-functional for a family. It’s like a scale model of a kitchen, not a real kitchen. And not for half a million dollars.
Has anybody ever visited one of these?
Do they only have windows on one side?
“Has anybody ever visited one of these?
Do they only have windows on one side?”
The FP for the ground floor is here: http://clientconnect.koenigstrey.com/dfKNS/images//9C33216542BAC7AFEA5B40F137BD54C0_740640.jpg
and shows each of the #1 units having a corner. I don’t know where they squeezed in the 5th upper level unit.
“Unfortunately, I don’t think I could live without refrigerator.”
Heh. Another one where they put the refrigerator next to a double oven. Can someone tell the f’ing architects and/or kitchen designers that this is a bad idea?
dahlia–found a floorplan of the ground floor only–link trapped it in mod–which shows that the #1 units are each on a corner, so that have two exposures.
Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed. It’s 10:43 and anon(tfo) is dropping the f’ bombs are ready.
“Can someone tell the f’ing architects and/or kitchen designers that this is a bad idea?”
“Another one where they put the refrigerator next to a double oven. Can someone tell the f’ing architects and/or kitchen designers that this is a bad idea”
why is it a bad idea?
“why is it a bad idea?”
it should be stated well only a bad idea for people with “limited” incomes.
I live a block from these units. As I’ve said before on this blog, they dont fit in with the look of the neighborhood. Even so, there was pleny of people when these things were built that would have done anything to get there hands on one of these at the right price. If they had priced them right in the begining, they would have all been sold by now. Its a shame that they couldn’t have just priced them right in 2008-2009 and got them sold. Im sure there were numerous offers for what they are priced at as bank owned, but that the agents wouldnt accept a low ball offer back then.
“Because there’s nothing immature about being upset about losing $100k.”
Yes. but there is everything immature about being upset at your neighbor for a poor investment on your part.
Clio I’m a Navy brat. Not damaged but really good at finding people to talk to and re-working my social network. I also have couches/guest rooms to crash in across the globe because I knoew people in most towns. Moving isn’t that much of a chore.
“C. uprooting your family – psychologically detrimental”
Speaking of bad investments, HD, did you see this article about Law Schools and the education bubble?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Is-Law-School-a-Losing-nytimes-4041284113.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=9&asset=&ccode=
“why is it a bad idea?”
well for those of us without multi-thousand dollar well insulated appliances, its probably a bad idea
Placing an oven next to the fridge suggests that when the oven cycles on the fridge has to work that much harder to keep its contents cool. It is an inherent bad design no matter how well the appliances are insulated. Annon and I believe that it shows lack of comprehension or detail follow thru by a kitchen designer. It is the equivalent of placing a dishwasher in the island directly across from the fridge. You know that both can not be opened at once and that is poor design.
“I have two sets of friends in the immediate area w/ kids in pre-k and k. Pulaski’s pre-k doesn’t guarantee admin into K or the IB, the gifted program is for native spanish speakers only, and there is a real rift between the two in the building.
They did say that during visits there was mention of removing the Spanish requirement as the enrollment is down.
Positives abound in terms of turnaround with a new Friends of Pulaski group, the Principal is behind the IB push, and a lot of attention on the incoming classes.”
Thanks, Wicker. I’ve been assuming (w/o any basis) that if the IB really takes off, the Spanish component would get pushed out. I know someone on a very casual basis who bought a house in btown specifically for Pulaski. I think they were in the pre-K there. But I haven’t seen them since they moved.
“Speaking of bad investments, HD, did you see this article about Law Schools and the education bubble?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Is-Law-School-a-Losing-nytimes-4041284113.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=9&asset=&ccode=”
Joe, saw that article earlier myself. while i feel bad for law students graduating in a grim job market – you have to be smart. Why go to a school that is in the bottom tier of law schools in America? It’s stupid to assume that in a nation saturated with law schools that you will find a decent job graduating from a low-end institution. It’s not a good idea to go to a school that isn’t ranked in the top 50, and to be conservative, i’d say top 30. Law salaries and job opportunities are directly linked to the ranking of the school..Kids should research this before jumping into 200k of debt.
Absolutely Riz, I agree, but one of the fundamental issues we see playing out with higher education (and trust me, I pay out of pocket to go to a top tier B School in the Chicago area) is that easy credit (provided by the government) distorts asset prices. It’s not all that different from the games residency programs play with their budgets for residents and fellows – all paid by medicare, keeps wages low, and the program confiscates a good portion of the overall budget. You know this game well.
Buyer beware, for sure, but I would argue institutions of higher learning have a moral obligation to not mislead their students, and (bringing it back to medicine) should pay their residents/fellows market wages for their work, not 50% (heard this a few years ago) of the subsidy they receive from medicare.
“Placing an oven next to the fridge suggests that when the oven cycles on the fridge has to work that much harder to keep its contents cool. It is an inherent bad design no matter how well the appliances are insulated. Annon and I believe that it shows lack of comprehension or detail follow thru by a kitchen designer. It is the equivalent of placing a dishwasher in the island directly across from the fridge. You know that both can not be opened at once and that is poor design.”
*exactly*
That law school article makes me want to cry. I have some debt but fortunately I’ve been able to keep employed.
Typical old gray lady, leaving out the most important parts. They propose solutions like shutting down the lower tiered schools, limiting class size, etc. One guy even suggests the government step in.
However, the problem isn’t lack of government, it’s too much government. Students can borrow too much money and what do you know the tuition is whatever students can borrow. Same with subprime. how much can you borrow for this house? That’s what it costs.
Of course the old gray lady fails to mention that government funding is skewing the figures. Now that government is the only game in town…
Imagine someday we’ll have an entire class of professionals, including doctors, lawyers, accountants, architects, etc all indentured servants to the government in the form of student loans.
Had to put this in here, because it is so relevant to the real estate market as well. Quote from the law grad who spent $250k to go to a third tier law school in San Diego, now works short term jobs, and is being called by creditors every day…
Another of Mr. Wallerstein’s techniques for remaining cool in a serious financial pickle: believe that the pickle might somehow disappear. Clio, you’ll love this.
“Bank bailouts, company bailouts — I don’t know, we’re the generation of bailouts,” he says in a hallway during a break from his Peak Discovery job. “And like, this debt of mine is just sort of, it’s a little illusory. I feel like at some point, I’ll negotiate it away, or they won’t collect it.”
He gives a slight shrug and a smile as he heads back to work. “It could be worse,” he says. “It’s not like they can put me jail.”
“Imagine someday we’ll have an entire class of professionals, including doctors, lawyers, accountants, architects, etc all indentured servants to the government in the form of student loans.”
Is this better or worse than the model in most of the rest of the (developed) world where everyone pays more tax so that higher education is much more affordable for those who get in?
Joe,
Spot on. Residency budgets are BS. IF not 50%, at least 30% of the budget goes into the pocket of the program. It’s sad really, working 80-90 hours a week and bringing in 50k a year. I believe if you do the math at our residency program we are paid just above minimum wage. Sad.
Also I agree with you and HD about the government loan stuff – there needs to be more regulation…It’s sad that the law school was able to talk these kids into paying this tuition and collecting this debt. Our school spent a whole week teaching us about finance, loans, interest, job market, etc etc when we started – they had to, as a lot of kids were borrowing more than they could pay back after graduation. But at some point, you have to point the finger at the borrower to. Why not practice some due diligence and research the school, job placement, salary expectations, etc..what was that kid thinking borrowing that much? the expected salary after graduation (IF HE GOT A JOB) is ~ 60k..there’s no way he’d be able to pay back nearly 300 grand of debt on that salary anyways. i’m dumbfounded by people every day.
“However, the problem isn’t lack of government, it’s too much government. Students can borrow too much money and what do you know the tuition is whatever students can borrow. Same with subprime. how much can you borrow for this house? That’s what it costs.
Imagine someday we’ll have an entire class of professionals, including doctors, lawyers, accountants, architects, etc all indentured servants to the government in the form of student loans.”
(Sincere question:) Did something change recently that brought this about?
And won’t this fix itself? It’s not like generations of people who shouldn’t go to law school will keep going. Maybe there’ll be efficiencies in how to offer a basic legal education too? Sufficient for basic legal work.
“Is this better or worse than the model in most of the rest of the (developed) world where everyone pays more tax so that higher education is much more affordable for those who get in?”
Better. The burden doesn’t sit on everyone else to subsidize education for the select few that choose to pursue a career in post graduate fields. Also, the capitalist environment makes it at possible to pay these loans back in a reasonable amount of time, if these individuals are conservative with their money and expenditures early on in their career. A big chunk of my medical school class graduated with loans in the 300k ballpark. Is that crazy? yes. Do i feel bad for them? yes. will they be able to pay these loans? absolutely. It was a conscious choice , and most, if not all, will be able to pay the loans off within the next 15 years, it sucks that the costs have escalated so much. Our attendings paid 5k-10k per year for medical school and made 2-3X as much as we will..Can’t speak for law, but that’s the case in medicine currently. It’s just a sad reality of going to professional school in america today. :-/
They’ll keep going to law school as long as they can borrow the money. Just like borrowers kept buying homes until the banks lending the money went bankrupt. Seriously, it’s exactly the same thing. Now that government has taken control of lending and has no intentions of turning off the spigot….at least new century stopped making loans whereas the governments piling them on.
Cut off the funding to the beast and watch tuition fall.
It’ll be 20 years before this ‘problem’ is fixed and the default rates on student loans are like 40% percent at state schools.
“It’s not like generations of people who shouldn’t go to law school will keep going. “
and my generation of today’s 20 and 30 somethings still has outstanding student loans when we’re in our 40s and 50s . There will be some sort of jubilee and congress will cut off funding . I have faith that my generation won’t allow our children to take on such burdensome debt loads like us to pay for school. I have faith the system will be fixed, but it’s years down the road. Come on Obama, prove me wrong.
1) Why would the Grey Lady attempt to connect the economic dots for people and explain that the government backstopping student loans leads to increased tuition?
2) Grey Lady likes to promote the victimization card as well as govt knows best. The govt being heavily involved in this solves both problems.
“Cut off the funding to the beast and watch tuition fall. ”
Actually I don’t think tuitions would decrease – but lesser schools will go out of business and close. Although this would solve some of the problems, the bigger problem that will exist is that only the very rich will be able to pursue higher education (easily).
“Actually I don’t think tuitions would decrease – but lesser schools will go out of business and close. ”
Whose opinion am I going to believe? Someone like HD who hasn’t lost any money in real estate? Or someone like clio who has lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in real estate?
This isn’t some college circular shaped room where all ideas and opinions are equally valid. Your record, clio, speaks for itself.
Student loan debt is increasing $2,853.88 per second:
http://www.finaid.org/loans/studentloandebtclock.phtml
none of this bodes well for housing. If for example associates in my office are paying $500 a month minimum payment for student loans, that’s $500 less a month they can pay for housing. $500 translates roughly to $100,000 a year. Let’s say our typical associate then pays an additional $250 a month towards the principal. That’s $750 a month, which believe me, is no uncommon. It’s not typical, but relatively common. So $750 a month total means $150,000 less house for at least 15 years, figuring roughly an additional $250 a month reduces the payments from 30 years to 15. roughly, of course.
Fast forward to age 31 or 32. typical associate (outside big law) has been paying on student loans for 6 or 7 years at $750 a month. Now he has a child and a wife. He needs to pay for daycare or nanny. Daycares in the green zone are $1500 a month or more and good nannys can run up to $700 per week! SO $750 a month plus conservatively $1,500 per month is $2,250 a month. That’s a mortgage payment in and of itself. Probably similar to a $300k mortgage with taxes.
Fast forward to age 40. HOpefully student loans are paid off and children age 5/6/7 etc are finally in school and out of daycare. Now the extra $2,250 has been freed up to use towards a mortgage.
Pretty scary stuff for the real estate market. Not just for lawyesr for but anyone wiht a liberal arts degrees.
sorry, $500 a month for student loans translates to a roughly a PI payment on a $100,000 mortgage. So for example if the associate wanted to buy a house that cost $400,000, this associate can now only look at $300,000 houses because of the $500 a month mortgage payment.
HD, you hit that nail on the head in terms of loans..
my gf pays ~ 2k a month on her loans, ( this is because she wants to pay them off in 7 -8 years ) , and many of my classmates, after residency and interest factored in, to pay the loans off in about 15 years, will be paying 2k a month or more on loan payments…it’s crazy.
Here’s an off the wall thought… I’ll underwrite a student loan but only if the student gets into the top tier schools. You would think lenders would take into account earning potential before making a student loan. I’ll lend you 5k/yr to to University of Phoenix because that is about all the degree is worth on the free market, but we will lend you $50k/yr to go to UofC or like schools.
The underlying collateral is the earning potential of the degree and you would think lenders would figure that into how much money they are willing to lend to students. This would stop a lot of the tuition inflation at bottom rung schools. All schools aren’t worth 40k/yr in tuition.
The market for Doctors is tightly controlled so they are at an advantage over lawyers and b-school grads.
“Whose opinion am I going to believe? Someone like HD who hasn’t lost any money in real estate? Or someone like clio who has lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in real estate?
This isn’t some college circular shaped room where all ideas and opinions are equally valid. Your record, clio, speaks for itself.”
To be honest, they are both right here. Tuition will be forced to go down at mid tier to low tier law schools, and the really crappy ones will be forced to shut down – which is something that needs to happen – WAY too many law schools in this country. The tuition at places in the top tier or two won’t need to change much – people will still pay coin to go to U of C / Northwestern / Columbia /Harvard, etc, as the average starting salary of grads at these schools is into the six figure range…a lot less people will want to go to ‘thomas jefferson’ and pay the same tuition to graduate to a salary of 60k.
“You would think lenders would take into account earning potential before making a student loan.”
Why would lenders be interested in taking anything into account when their principal and interest is guaranteed by Uncle Sam in the case of default?
Russ, in my opinion that is a brilliant idea. I don’t know what idiot is in charge of lending someone 200k to go to a tier 4 law school. As a lender i’d have no problem giving that much to a U of C, or even a University of illinois / big Ten law school grad. Medicine is much more uniform, luckily..you can go to bob’s college of medicine in the carribbean, or harvard, if both of you do internal medicine , salaries are the same. =)
“Or someone like clio who has lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in real estate.”
uhhhh – Bob — check your facts. I haven’t lost a penny in real estate – in fact, real estate is where I made all of my money. So basically, to answer your question, you should listen to me (since I have more experience than HD and actually have skin in the game).
“and my generation of today’s 20 and 30 somethings still has outstanding student loans when we’re in our 40s and 50s”
Fact. But only because they delayed payments on their student loans until AFTER they graduated. Getting a loan for school is actually quite similar to getting a mortgage…one SHOULD save for college – starting as early as possible – while working through school and starting to pay off that said balance. Also, before just picking a loan, try to receive grants/scholorships/etc which will lower the balance you owe.
And all this about you should only go to a top tier school blah blah blah…thats 100% BS.
Most kids, now more than ever, go to school for all the wrong reasons…that’s the biggest issue, not tuition prices, school stigma, or government.
Really like this place except for kitchen layout. Bad spot for fridge and no counterspace. If thats a private little back yard it’s perfect for a dog owner. Also not sure about floor to ceiling windows in this location on ground floor. What’s looking back at you?
“one SHOULD save for college – starting as early as possible – while working through school and starting to pay off that said balance. Also, before just picking a loan, try to receive grants/scholorships/etc which will lower the balance you owe.
And all this about you should only go to a top tier school blah blah blah…thats 100% BS.”
Dude , what the heck are you talking about. It’s a known fact that low end law school grads have a huge problem finding jobs and are paid SIGNIFICANTLY less. Don’t believe me? here are salary rankings and statistics – see how the top end school graduates earn a high salary, while as you go lower the salary dips into the 50-70k range? ( for those who get jobs ? ) yeah. that’s why you shouldn’t borrow 200k if you’re going to a low tier school – and ABSOLUTELY should pursue a career at a top end school if you are taking huge loans. Research a bit before commenting next time.
http://www.ilrg.com/rankings/law/median.php/1/desc/MSPrivate
Also, saving for college, working through school, all great ideas. But do you have any idea what the workload for a student doing pre-med or pre-law is like? doesn’t leave a ton of time to work outside of part time jobs – and it’s impossible to work in med or law school. Grants and scholarships are great – good luck getting those with the type A personalities in grad school. Going to school for the wrong reasons? such as what? Tuition prices are a huge problem. the biggest, in my opinion.
“good nannys can run up to $700 per week!”
Up to? Good one, HD, good one. Hard to find someone decent for less than $13/hour, and $15 is common, plus, it’s reasonably likely you need her for 45+ hours rather than 40 and, if you keep it legal, that’s another $1 to $1.50/hour for taxes, insurance, etc. It’s actually pretty hard to get a legal, english speaker f/t for *under* $700/wk, unless it’s off the books (ie, breaking the law).
“A big chunk of my medical school class graduated with loans in the 300k ballpark. Is that crazy? yes. Do i feel bad for them? yes. will they be able to pay these loans? absolutely. It was a conscious choice , and most, if not all, will be able to pay the loans off within the next 15 year”
Riz There will be many of your classmates as well as individuals from future classes that will have major issues paying down all that debt. The same analogy of Law grads not making enough is applicable in Medicine as well. I’m very near this issue and urge you to just wait, watch, and see for yourself. At most I’d call it three to five years max before you start to see the cracks and it will hit the headlines.
Jp3,
That is def a possibility. Med school tuition is way too high. For those that specialize , debt isn’t an issue… But family practice, peds, other lower paid docs will def. Struggle.. Although the govt is already stepping in and at our school the state pays the tuition if you sign a contract to only apply to peds and family practice. There are prions to avoid the debt.. There are cheaper med schools and cheaper cities to live in. I don’t think we will see cracks as soon ad you think, but I won’t deny it will happen
Options* not prions. Dumb autocorrect.
“To be honest, they are both right here. Tuition will be forced to go down at mid tier to low tier law schools, and the really crappy ones will be forced to shut down – which is something that needs to happen”
Riz perfect quote there. Capitalism at work. May the strong businesses learn to survive and flourish while the weaker businesses (in this case schools) fail. That is life!
If I recall correctly there was an article in Crains a few months ago about the for profit “trade” and “job specific” schools that hustle to fill students and give them financing that can never be repaid on the salaries that will be generated by the certificate or “degree.” That sux! The article suggested that it is the not so smart people wanting to better themselves who end up making poor decisions in the process.
Buyer beware!
I agree with both Riz and Jp3. Medical school debt, however, is a little different than other graduate school loans because almost every doctor WILL be able to find a job that pays over 100k. Sure, in the future, docs won’t be making more than 200-300k, but also remember that in the future, you won’t be working that many hours.
Medical care is going to seriously suffer. What person in their right mind would agree to work 90hours a week, be on call, work weekends, in a highly stressful environment for 200k? Hardly anyone. Docs are going to say, “fuck it” and are going to adopt a 9-5 attitude. You don’t come in during those hours, sorry -too bad, you suffer. It is really terrible and I wish there was some way to prevent this – but it looks like this is going to be the furture of medicine.
Look at the Kaiser system in California and ask their patients what kind of care they got – it is all coming to a hospital/healthcare provider near you.,,,
Oh how did students ever attend college before the government got involved in student loans?
An old timer here tells stories about driving a CTA bus during the day, attending law school at night, and graduating with no debt. I highly doubt this would be possible today and CTA bus drivers are paid quite hansomly at $25.00 plus overtime.
Anon(tfo) : $700 a week is what some senior consultants I know pay and that’s totally legal english speaking and it’s $700 in her pocket plus payroll taxes. You probably know more about teh nanny market than I do
Yeah many specialists will be fine for a decade or more. I’d suggest that the anti-Obamacare headlines will be fueled with the stories of doctors hitting the hard times vs. their debt load headlines within three years.
They will be true stories that are slanted slightly to make a bigger point about the diminishing financial picture for physicians under the ever changing system. All brought to you by AMA and other interested groups. As I say slightly exaggerated as needed.
debt and child care expenses and living expenses eat up a lot of the household budget, leaving not too much money left over for housing. And this trend isn’t getting any better.
In the side of the healthcare business where I specialize medicare cut back it’s fee schedule one tenth of one percent. What a bunch of idiots. If you are going to do a cut don’t even bother for that small amount. Make bigger decisions. We need true reform and intelligent people on the hill. That has been lacking for years.
i’ve seen a swedish covenant hospital bill for $70,000 for a open reduction internal fixation upon a displaced fractured femur. the bill was reduced to something like $7,000 after medicaid chopped apart the bill with an out of pocket of zero for the patient.
The $70,000 included a couple days in the hospital and PT and follow up.
” medicare cut back it’s fee schedule one tenth of one percent. What a bunch of idiots. If you are going to do a cut don’t even bother for that small amount. ”
Actually, they are dumb like foxes. Jp3 – you understand why they did this right? It was to appease the AMA by effectively not cutting anything but, at the same time, they can tell the people that they made cuts in payment (thus appeasing the common folk who are usually too stupid/lazy to realize that the cut is effectively meaningless).
There is a significant difference in the opportunities that higher tier schools provide. Don’t fool yourself into thinking other wise. Just a fact of life. There is no magic formula and there are grey areas, but in general, the higher the prestige of the school the better the initial opportunities. Obviously, the longer one is out of school, the less value the degree holds, but you cannot discount the initial boost on long term earnings and opportunities.
If you are a career changer looking to go from teaching third grade to say investment banking or even brand management, the higher tier schools are very much worth the price of admission.
If you are already pretty far ahead in your career (as in ahead of where most MBAs will be upon graduation), then the ROI of the higher tier schools may not be as great, particularly if your employer will pay for tuition and especially if you are just going to continue on your current career path.
If you are underemployed and looking for a career boost, a lower tier school can be a good option, but you have to be realistic about the opportunities. Say you are a bank teller and going nowhere fast, you could conceivably go to a mid or lower tier school and get a decent career boost well ahead of where you would be had you continued in the current job for two years.
Schools are very adept at juking the stats. Lower tier schools will say “See, we placed 5 people at XYZ consulting firm…” What they won’t tell you is that those 5 people had already worked for that firm before school and went to that school on the firm’s dime.
Riz aka internet tough guy –
I read the article thank you very much. My point is that if you want to become a lawyer, great! Go to law school to become a lawyer – doesn’t matter the pedigree of the school. DONT go to law school because you have nothing better to do. DONT go to law school and not expect to have a job while in school to help pay off bills – any job.
There is nothing wrong with going to school – any school – to follow your heart and fulfill your dreams, just beware of the conseqeuences (ahem, 200k outstanding debt).
Your idea of only underwriting top tier school loans is about as absurd as tax breaks for the wealthiest. You are saying that only students that qualify for these schools are the good students, the ones that are going to make it….absurd.
“$700 a week is what some senior consultants I know pay and that’s totally legal english speaking and it’s $700 in her pocket plus payroll taxes. ”
$700 in her pocket = ~ $1000, all in, including FICA/MC/UE/WC.
“Your idea of only underwriting top tier school loans is about as absurd as tax breaks for the wealthiest. ”
Your value judgment makes no sense. He is talking about his personal $ and he can loan to whomever he sees fit under whatever criteria he desires. You sound like a Soviet with your sweeping statement that he is somehow absurd.
“Your idea of only underwriting top tier school loans is about as absurd as tax breaks for the wealthiest”
…..speaking of tax “breaks” for the wealthy – wtf are you talking about?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, there was, is and will NEVER be a tax “break” for the wealthy. This makes me so mad when morons go about spouting this nonsense. We pay WAY MORE than our share of taxes and rarely reap any increased benefits. Even with a flat tax system, wealthy people will pay much more (ie 250k on 1 million vs 25k on 100k at 25%). but the govt. has taken it a step further to rape the rich. Anyone who doesn’t understand this is a complete moron!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Seriously, there was, is and will NEVER be a tax “break” for the wealthy. ”
You might want to check out who benefits most from the mortgage interest deduction.
The more money you make, you more you should pay in taxes….period.
Fine. $1,000 a week = $4,000 a month plus $750 a month student loans is $4,750 a month which is the size of two mortgages. you have to win the partnership lottery at 32 to achieve that kind of bling. My point is that it’s expensive expensive to do this kind of stuff and it doesn’t bode well for housing.
“#anon (tfo) on January 10th, 2011 at 1:38 pm
“$700 a week is what some senior consultants I know pay and that’s totally legal english speaking and it’s $700 in her pocket plus payroll taxes. ”
$700 in her pocket = ~ $1000, all in, including FICA/MC/UE/WC.”
…and don’t give me that, “I will work less” dumb-a$$ lazy rich american attitude, why don’t you try working harder to make more because you are paying so much in taxes.
Really? Why is that? So that some bureaucrat can redistribute it as he deems fit? which often times is to his crony buddies in the form of contracts and salaries and benefits?
“#A-Fed on January 10th, 2011 at 1:49 pm
The more money you make, you more you should pay in taxes….period.”
This may have been mentioned in one of the 100 previous comments but I don’t have time to scan them. I toured these units and they put the mechanicals in a closet right next to the kitchen, so when the a/c was on it was so loud in the place you couldn’t even hear yourself think.
Colleges have always been around and before college was an apprentice system. Abraham Lincoln didn’t go to college but instead was trained by another to practice law.
The current system of student loans had good intentions – but got out of control – with many vested interests – from tenured profs, to lenders, to investment bankers who securitize the loans, to the government who insures them, to the students who rely on them to pay for the $15,000 a year room and board…
“why don’t you try working harder to make more because you are paying so much in taxes.”
because if you make 250k and are at a certain level (25% or whatever) why would you work your ass off to make an extra 100k – when that extra 100k is going to be taxed at such a higher level? It just doesn’t make sense in your life to work harder for less money. The government is ensuring and encouraging this lazy behavior. If, in fact they had a regressive tax, more people would strive to work harder and make more money.
Oh cmon HD….look man, I agree that some bureaucrat is going to misuse some of the funds but that’s politics and it sure aint perfect.
Unless you want some other country to hold all of our debt and us to default on a payment one of these days, the rich need to step out and help out the middle and lower class (as oppose to vice versa).
“You might want to check out who benefits most from the mortgage interest deduction.”
That’s a good one. My other favorite is ss limit at 106k. Long term capital gains at 15% is pretty awesome too.
“It just doesn’t make sense in your life to work harder for less money”
No Clio, it doesn’t make sense in your life that you only care about yourself and have no civil responsibilities to the american people.
I would gladly work an extra hour per day and donate it to help out a charity or fulfill my resonponsibility – as an american – to keep this country going.
If they have a regressive tax, the rich will get richer, poor will get poorer, and middle class will keep bending over.
“Long term capital gains at 15% is pretty awesome too.”
And dividends. If you have all passive income, you can pay 15% FIT, no matter how much you make.
A-fed I don’t think you know how law school works. My point is, if you want to be a lawyer- great. Try and go to a school that can offer a job that pays enough to offset the loans you will need to take to pay for your education. I don’t think it makes sense to borrow 200k to get a job that pays 50k. Just my .02 on the matter, hence I say it’s not a good idea to pursue a law degree from a low tier school, hence your statement about “only going to a top tier school being BS” is wrong, it’s a bad idea to go to a low tier school and be stuck jobless and in default. That’s my point.
Also, people that make more pay a ton in tax, so they often scale back their hours and pay ( especially doctors) bc it’s not worth being in that high income bracket after taxes and hours spent at work are configured nothing wrong with that.
“Also, people that make more pay a ton in tax, so they often scale back their hours and pay ( especially doctors) bc it’s not worth being in that high income bracket after taxes and hours spent at work are configured nothing wrong with that.”
Find a wall street type that wants to scale back his hours to avoid getting too big a bonus, I’ll show you someone who’s going to get a bonus so small it won’t pay the mortgage.
Riz – I understand. But if you don’t go to a top tier law school, try putting in a little extra effort to get a job with the firm you want. Show up in person to the firm, tell them you will work for free to proove how good you can be, send a letter a day for 4 years if you have to! But do not avoid school if that is where you heart lies and what you want to do!
What I see happening is most kids think that just because they earn a degree means they are going to get a *good* job.
“Find a wall street type that wants to scale back his hours to avoid getting too big a bonus, I’ll show you someone who’s going to get a bonus so small it won’t pay the mortgage.”
wait i didnt get the memo, companies are paying out bonuses again? well golly i need to check my mailbox so i can use that check to pay peoples gas.
Afed, great attitude I’d say, being assertive I’d important, and I’m no lawyer so I can’t say how the job market works, but I’d say it’d be pretty darn hard to get that six figure job Coming out of southern Illinois or NIU law school when you’re competing with a northwestern grad.
Anon, if doctors saw wall street paychecks, med school would probably be nearly impossible to get into, haha 🙂
“pretty darn hard to get that six figure job Coming out of southern Illinois or NIU law school when you’re competing with a northwestern grad. ”
It’s easier than you think….I’m living proof!
Remember, your credentials only get you the interview whereas YOU (personality, intellegence, character, etc..) get the job.
“wait i didnt get the memo, companies are paying out bonuses again? well golly i need to check my mailbox so i can use that check to pay peoples gas.”
What would happen to you, groove, if you wanted to work 10% less and make 10%, so you didn’t cross into another tax bracket? They’d just find someone else to pick up the slack? Or find someone else to do 10% *more* for 10% less? Exactly.
“What would happen to you, groove, if you wanted to work 10% less and make 10%, so you didn’t cross into another tax bracket? They’d just find someone else to pick up the slack? Or find someone else to do 10% *more* for 10% less? Exactly.”
ha i learned in a down economy WORK AN EXTRA 20% because there are many unemployed overqualified peeps that will do your job for .30 on the dollar!
I would love the option to slack 10% to not get Obamaized in 2 years.
“Anon, if doctors saw wall street paychecks, med school would probably be nearly impossible to get into”
so true … one of my partners has a 25 y.o son graduated from Colorado College and is making more than us in NY as an investment banker. Of course, daddy’s money helped him get the right connections, but the money in business is insane – docs make nothing close to the amount of money these guys make. That is a false belief that many americans have about the medical profession.
“so you didn’t cross into another tax bracket?”
thats not how marginal tax rates work…. /sigh
What you don’t seem to understand clio is that over the last ten years the money has flowed from the hands of the poor and the middle class to the superrich. Your theories about whats right or wrong are nice but in the real world, you need to make sure the poorest people in society have a place to live and some food and maybe even a job. If not, one day you will walk out of the palmolive building and they will be waiting for you.
“but in the real world, you need to make sure the poorest people in society have a place to live and some food and maybe even a job.”
you are wrong – we should make sure, in the real world, that these people have the OPPORTUNITIES available to help themselves. I will never believe that it is good to just give money/services away. This includes inheritance (my kids know they will be getting nothing when I am dead but I will pay for education,etc. lessons, tutoring to help them help themselves).
there never was a “middle class” its just a political play
think about it… most people consider themselves “middle class” even if they are making 250k a year or if they’re making 25k a year they don’t consider themselves “poor” they consider themselves “middle class”
its nothing more than a political play to get people riled up over the uber wealthy ruling the world and the poor people mooching off the dole
itcaffey, what you do think about this article?
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Did-Bankers-Rob-Middle-Class-atlantic-2217053867.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=
“thats not how marginal tax rates work…. /sigh”
The argument is that if the marginal dollar of income would only bring me home .65, instead of .72, I’d rather have the free time.
My argument is that most people–even at the subject income thresholds–actually don’t have that much choice in the matter; that their choice is b/t working hard and making $300k or working somewhere else perhaps for $150k, not b/t working hard for $300k and working .8*hard for $240k.
“in the real world, you need to make sure the poorest people in society have a place to live and some food and maybe even a job. If not, one day you will walk out of the palmolive building and they will be waiting for you.”
Shorter caffey = “you need to make sure that no one storms the Bastille”.
“Shorter caffey = “you need to make sure that no one storms the Bastille”.
that’s why we have doormen.
$20 worth of grease and you can sliiiide right by any door man in this city…
“$20 worth of grease and you can sliiiide right by any door man in this city…”
I would bet you any amount of money that I could find AT LEAST 10 buildings where you couldn’t get past the doormen no matter how much money you paid them.
Yeah. Agreed with clio. My doorman are insane when it comes to letting people in..They don’t even let my girlfriend up without calling me first..Plus, to be honest, 20 bucks isn’t a lot to a doorman nowadays anyways.
“It’s easier than you think….I’m living proof!
Remember, your credentials only get you the interview whereas YOU (personality, intellegence, character, etc..) get the job.”
Well, you’re a serious exception. less than 5% of grads from tier 3 or 4 law schools make over 70k upon graduation. But good for you – i’m no one to say hard work can’t go a long way – it absolutely can. you can’t ignore the odds though.
I hear this all the time, and yes the rich/poor gap is very, very, very wide. But really, even if there were firms TBTF (too big to fail) does anyone believe they wanted a crash? Why would Citibank execs and stockholders want the stock to crash to $4? even with a bailout? Weren’t they better off before? The superrich got hammered too, relative to where they were, right? How does the superrich amass more money during a bear market and crisis like we had in 2008? Can someone explain this? let’s follow the money to see it explained.
“What you don’t seem to understand clio is that over the last ten years the money has flowed from the hands of the poor and the middle class to the superrich.”
Joe I think there is book you would like called fiasco. Not the one about the iraq war, the one about how morgan stanley peddles their derivative products to municipalities and pension funds. It’s an eye opener. Hmmm how does the superrich amass more money during a bear market? Ask yourself this question next time you put five bucks in a parking meter.
DZ: Not sure if you are still monitoring the thread but here’s the full response from one of my friends who is near Pulaski. I’m still interested in the area / school.
I could not remember the specific reasons but the wife gave me the run-down this weekend. We were really looking primarily at the preschool and worrying about elementary school later. As a CPS school, it has a pre-school for all program which is supposed to be for low income kids. It also has a tuition based school. I am not sure how strict they are on enforcing the income requirements but we assumed we would be going with the tuition based program. The pre-school has a half and full day. During the info sessions that we went to they made it seem like the full day would likely not fill up though and so there would only be a half-day program. Both the programs are really expensive in the tuition based on arrangement. They have a $500 (half) and $1,000 (full) application fee. Then the pre-school is $5,000 (half) and $10,000 (full). The preschool follows an Italian method that the wife’s friends told her is the method followed at some of
the most expensive schools in New York. The whole school does not follow that methodn, only the preschool.
Beyond the cost of the school, the test scores were not that great. There are several Catholic schools nearby that have better scores for less.
To be honest, we have not really looked at it for beyond pre-school. The tour told me that the test scores are again not that great right now but they have been working on improving them.
I took a tour and I met the president of the Friends of Pulaski Association. He seemed good and the group seems good too. The school has a Regional Gifted school within it for non-English speakers with Spanish as first language but it might be phased out as there less kids applying to it. The rest of the school teaches on an international program (I cannot think of the name) that is based on the program that was developed for American diplomats overseas so that they would have a consistent program regardless of the country. He claimed it was really good.
It is a good school but I think there are better neighborhood schools in some of the Lakeview areas, test score wise, like Blaine and Neddlehorse. Hopefully it will continue to get better as more involved parents stay in the neighborhood.
Wicker,
Thanks! I’m not sure if the reported test score issue relates to preK or the higher grades. The new international baccalaureate (IB) program just started this past fall and is being rolled out to the higher grades over time. There’s a summary in link below that seems fairly accurate to me (except perhaps placing a greater weight on the alderman’s role). If this sort of jump start works as they hope, it would not be reflected in test scores for a while. You can’t tell anything from the past scores (which isn’t to say this will work, just that you can’t conclude it won’t from the scores). As I said, I know one family on a very casual basis who saw enough promise in it that they moved to bucktown for that reason. I haven’t run into them since they moved.
There was a LOT of controversy over the change, as some saw it as the yuppie (for lack of better term) bucktown parents taking over the school and displacing the existing school (as well as the if you’re going to fix school stuff, why not fix it for people who really need it viewpoint). Beyond the spanish gifted (which I don’t know much about), the main school was viewed by some as the best option for a lot of other families in the area. E.g., not the best exactly but better than options in Humboldt or other areas. But it reportedly had relatively little neighborhood attendance, especially from the yuppies.
My view is that the IB program is neither here nor there, fine but just sort of a focal point to jump start the school, a way to get enough momentum for the yuppies to agree to send their kids there. I tend to think it will work, not a lot of CPS options in wicker/btown/logan, which may give Pulaski some further momentum if it needs it. I don’t know that it will necessarily become one of the “hot” schools (not the the hot schools are always that good) but I’d bet it becomes at least a contender for parents who could afford private.
http://ward32.org/news/pulaski-elementary-ib/
DZ,
You’ve nailed the demographic around there perfectly, and I think demonstrates a microcosm of gentrification. Me personally I’d prefer not to have the added expense of private school but if I’m going to, may as well live where I’d like.
Big question is where in the city to live, with a kid? I don’t actually have one yet so other than knowing I want the school to be nearby and proximity to the loop & el I’m not sure what I’d actually use/want. Suburbs takes part of this decision out – all burbs pretty much live the same (you drive to do everything, SFH for all!).
“Big question is where in the city to live, with a kid? I don’t actually have one yet so other than knowing I want the school to be nearby and proximity to the loop & el I’m not sure what I’d actually use/want. Suburbs takes part of this decision out – all burbs pretty much live the same (you drive to do everything, SFH for all!).”
Jeff Park, great place to raise a kid and you dont need a car either. everything is a 1/3 of the cost of Bucktown and LP.
just saying
“Big question is where in the city to live, with a kid? I don’t actually have one yet so other than knowing I want the school to be nearby and proximity to the loop & el I’m not sure what I’d actually use/want.”
School is the big additional issue obviously, and cost of private depends on how many kids as well. If I were in your position (I kinda was) I’d wait (I kinda did).
“Jeff Park, great place to raise a kid and you dont need a car either. everything is a 1/3 of the cost of Bucktown and LP.”
I know you’re exaggerating for effect, but stuff is not that much cheaper in JP (you don’t get a good CPS elem, right?). E.g., could you find the equivalent of place this place (which I know has negatives) that is listing at $750K in btown for $375K in JP, let alone $250K?
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2021-N-Oakley-Ave-60647/home/13356985
Groove: I drove around w/ the dog & wife on Sunday around Jeff Park, and I actually have a great aunt that lives there so I’m somewhat familiar. I think when spring hits and this mythical ‘flood’ of properties hits the market I’ll do the walking tour and neighborhood visiting trips. Def. not out of question, though due to location of friends and frankly familiarity wasn’t top of list.
“(you don’t get a good CPS elem, right?”
beuabian is good
“E.g., could you find the equivalent of place this place (which I know has negatives) that is listing at $750K in btown for $375K in JP, let alone $250K?”
yes you can;
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/5010-N-Major-Ave-60630/home/13499869
and another 100k you can convert it to anything you desire.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/5541-W-Edmunds-St-60630/home/13497751
tear down and build what ever your heart desires
but when i talk cheaper i mean everything, groceries, dining, shopping, gas (auto), kids classes (i.e. karate, music), parking (its free) and you have a bus depot metra and blue line all for you urban enviro types, and for you old school styrofoam big mac container types you have 90 and 94 right there, milwauke ave (out this way milwaukee ave doesnt have traffic) rt 43 and cicero ave.
“could you find the equivalent of place this place (which I know has negatives) that is listing at $750K in btown for $375K in JP, let alone $250K?”
With different issues, maybe:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/5856-N-Mason-Ave-60646/home/13509335
If you’re requiring a new-ish kitchen and a finished basement and a GatorDeck, of course not. But if you’re trying for a 4/3 that’s in livable condition, yeah, 1/3 the price if at least possible.
also, forgot to ask, did the appliance question mean you’re moving forward? Hit the email if you like.
“(you don’t get a good CPS elem, right?”
beuabian is good
“E.g., could you find the equivalent of place this place (which I know has negatives) that is listing at $750K in btown for $375K in JP, let alone $250K?”
yes you can;
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/5010-N-Major-Ave-60630/home/13499869
and another 100k you can convert it to anything you desire.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/5541-W-Edmunds-St-60630/home/13497751
tear down and build what ever your heart desires
but when i talk cheaper i mean everything, groceries, dining, shopping, gas (auto), kids classes (i.e. karate, music), parking (its free) and you have a bus depot metra and blue line all for you urban enviro types, and for you old school styrofoam big mac container types you have 90 and 94 right there, milwauke ave (out this way milwaukee ave doesnt have traffic) rt 43 and cicero ave.
Groove: cabs to/from work when I’m late or lazy would be more 😉
Jeff Park is OK but it’s a cross between the city and the suburbs. It doesn’t have the restaurants or scene like the green zone does. There’s a reason it’s much cheaper than bucktown. And your neighbors probably won’t be the professionals you expect to be living in $750,000 brick construction homes. A lot of where people live in this city is what they want from their neighbors which is what make this city so segregated. The guy who buys a $750,000 house in bucktown probably expects professional neighbors with good corporate jobs or white collar jobs, young children, maybe a stay at home wife next door. They dont’ expect a plumber or pick up contractor to live next door. At least I wouldn’t. Like when anon(tfo) talks about children’s parties – imagine you as the only one with teh same background. I know a professional who bought a house in a working class suburb and he hated it. His neighbors didn’t get along with him and his children going ot private schoools had nothing in common with the neighborhood children. Now he lives in a rich suburbs and he doesn’t fit in there either being too poor amongst the nouveau rich. I guess you can’t win.
“Groove: cabs to/from work when I’m late or lazy would be more”
year over year total costs would be lower even with a cab ride average of once a week round trip.
just saying
“It doesn’t have the restaurants or scene like the green zone does”
gale street inn, smak tak, smokey bbq, superdawg, got spaghetti, pasta de arte, maribllae (sp) tapas.
do you need more?
oh and HD ALL CHEAPER THAN GZ RESTAURANTS!!!!!!!!!!!
“If you’re requiring a new-ish kitchen and a finished basement and a GatorDeck, of course not. But if you’re trying for a 4/3 that’s in livable condition, yeah, 1/3 the price if at least possible.”
“yes you can;”
Well, I was asking about an equivalent place. I could find a cheaper place in btown too if we’re just finding livable places. But I take the point. Maybe at half off or a bit over you could find something equivalent (depending on how pricey the structure is).
“cabs to/from work when I’m late or lazy would be more”
Really miss that about river north. Cab so cheap (especially with two people) you don’t even really think about it, and readily available.
“also, forgot to ask, did the appliance question mean you’re moving forward? Hit the email if you like.”
Nothing much happening, I’ll probably drop an email when I have a moment.
“The guy who buys a $750,000 house in bucktown probably expects professional neighbors with good corporate jobs or white collar jobs, young children, maybe a stay at home wife next door. They dont’ expect a plumber or pick up contractor to live next door. At least I wouldn’t.”
I’d probably prefer a contractor or plumber next door.
“Like when anon(tfo) talks about children’s parties”
Does he do that a lot?
“Well, I was asking about an equivalent place. I could find a cheaper place in btown too if we’re just finding livable places. But I take the point. Maybe at half off or a bit over you could find something equivalent (depending on how pricey the structure is).”
Yeah, then the issue becomes over-improvement for the ‘hood. But getting 3 cosmetically comparable bathrooms and a reno’d kitchen with new appliances could be done for under $100k. The remaining, relatively unfixable, difference would be room sizes and layout.
“The more money you make, you more you should pay in taxes….period”
Ok I’ll bite but does that mean that 50% of people should pay ZERO federal personal income taxes. That is BS and is the real issue with the upper middle class and high income peoples arguments against higher marginal tax brackets. IT should not be ZERO for 50% of the population under any circumstances.
“I would gladly work an extra hour per day and donate it to help out a charity or fulfill my resonponsibility – as an american – to keep this country going”
That is a great idea that many would share but it will not keep this country going. At least not as we know it today. We will need to have many significant changes to our system of spending money and deflating currency to get our country going again. Working an extra hour or contributing a few extra points in taxes by the rich will not cure the fundamental problems.
“ZERO federal personal income taxes.”
Anyone who believes that FICA is not a federal personal income tax hasn’t been paying any attention. The SS lockbox is a myth.
elaborate annon
I love the ‘didn’t like living next to plumbers and doesn’t like living amongst the rich’. Let just say that I’m glad he’s your friend and not mine. He sounds like a joy to be around.
Really people, buying a house is more than a weekend project. Spend time in the area where you’re thinking of buying. Not just a stroller stroll on Sunday afternoon. Research, hang-out, talk to people, mingle. And do your co-workers the courtesy of not recommending your neighborhood as the most-amazing-place-in-all-of-Chicago..and maybe the world! It may be for you but behind the facade of the clothes and cars that look like yours, your new co-worker may be completely different than you.
LP is too yuppie for some, perfect for others. WP/BT is too ‘kool for school’ for some – perfect for others. JP to blue color/suburban for some, perfect for others.
but anon I read:
The trustees of the Social Security system are senior government officials like the secretary of the treasury and the secretary of labor. Should their projections on the system’s future be trusted?
For an independent view of Social Security’s health, take a look at an October 2010 report* from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a Washington, D.C. think tank, whose founder and executive director, Robert Greenstein, won a MacArthur Fellowship for making “the Center a model for a non-partisan research and policy organization.”
Social Security will enjoy annual surpluses—meaning it will collect more in payroll taxes and other income than it pays out—until 2025, according to the Center’s 2010 report.
Additional financial strength is provided by the Social Security surplus—the $2.5 trillion worth of Treasury bonds currently owned by Social Security that have been put away in anticipation of the baby boomer’s retirement.
Perhaps you’ve heard that the money has been spent to finance the federal government’s expenses. All that’s left is a stack of IOUs, in other words.
However, this is no different than any other government bond, according to the center. “Those securities are every bit as sound as the U.S. government securities held by investors around the globe,” the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities report says. “Investors regard those securities as being among the world’s very safest investments.”
In dollars and cents terms, the interest earned from Treasury bonds and money Social Security will receive by selling those bonds will give the system sufficient funds to pay full benefits until 2037, the Center’s report says.
“Anyone who believes that FICA is not a federal personal income tax hasn’t been paying any attention. The SS lockbox is a myth.”
Suppose, *very* hypothetically, SS were a wholly separate program with no government guarantee explicit or implicit, but a program that everyone was required to join and pay into. Would the contributions for that program be a tax?
Until 2037? I want collect social security in the 2040’s (god that looks scary just typing it) will the money be around then? How many workers will there be to support MY social security? Will demographics even support the system?
“Social Security will enjoy annual surpluses—meaning it will collect more in payroll taxes and other income than it pays out—until 2025, according to the Center’s 2010 report. ”
1. Not true by the end of last year and *very* not true with the payroll tax holiday.
2. “elaborate annon”: The surplus funds have been spent every year; the collections go into the general fund for current spending and the “lockbox” gets a note (T-Notes), supposedly payable out of future general fund $$. Anyone who claims that SS isn’t a problem bc of the “trust fund” is fooling themselves–it’s not like the Feds set aside the $$ to pay it back, paying back the “trust fund” bonds requires a sharp increase in taxes, or HUGE decrease in non-SS spending, including defense.
The alternative (which I deem more likely, eventually, as in in 2013 or 2017 (after a Prez election), depending on when stuff hits the fan) is a cut in SS benefits and defaulting on the “trust fund” bonds. Because, sometime soon, everyone UNDER 65 is going to wake up to the *fact* of a HUGE wealth transfer to boomers and not cotton to the tax increase or HUGE spending cuts and vote against those afraid of the AARP-cabal.
“Suppose, *very* hypothetically, SS were a wholly separate program with no government guarantee explicit or implicit, but a program that everyone was required to join and pay into. Would the contributions for that program be a tax?”
Does the surplus, by law, have to be invested in T-Notes which allow the government to run a *huge* deficit w/o explaining how huge the deficit really is, and that they are merely robbing peter to pay paul? If so, then I think it’s form over substance and it’s still a govt program and a disguised income tax.
If not, it’s basically a private pension plan (which, btw, have an express government guarantee, up to a limit, thru PBGC), would have a much, much lower percentage of its assets in T-Notes, and would be subject to the same constitutional challenges as the HCR individual mandate.
anon(tfo) I’m surprised to hear this ss stuff coming from you. I dont know why but I thought you would be more pro ss instead of having such a dismal take on it.
Regardless I think it’s safe to say that the sub 35 generation has little to no expectations of receiving any social security whatsoever so it’s going to be politically much easier to make changes.
Random question.
I want to do quick and fun getaway within the city this weekend with the wife. Lookingto spend a night in a hotel with the wife Sat night (and be back in time for the Bears game :). Does anyone know of any nice hotels with any specials, etc.?
So far thinking this looks fun.
http://www.hotelpalomar-chicago.com/chicago-getaway/#special_540
“Regardless I think it’s safe to say that the sub 35 generation has little to no expectations of receiving any social security whatsoever so it’s going to be politically much easier to make changes.”
Oh, it’s not that dire. The projection is for cuts in planned benefits of ~20%, once the trust fund is exhausted. Current year FICA collections fund most of the planned benefits even thru the peak of the boomers.
And, I’m pessimistic about future tax increases/budgetary balancing/debt service, so I’m a realist about the *EASIEST* way to cut 1/3 off the aggregate debt and that’s default on the SS bonds and whack SS benefits NOW. SS is a problem TODAY, not just in 25 years.
The article that I took that excerpt out of was from a FAQ distributed by Vanguard today on if we should trust SS to be there.
The gist of the article was yes, but probably reduced amounts, and you should save more than you are by investing in 401ks or IRAs.
b, the palomar is a great hotel.
The restaurant and bar, Sable, is amazing – some of the best made drinks in the city, and the food is excellent..the pumpkin ravioli is one of my favs – i try and stop in every couple weeks.
Call me crazy but I don’t putting my money into retirement accounts because it’s akin to giving wall street their skim. Maybe I’m a little paranoid but at this point in my life the money is going under my mattress. I can have far better returns paying down debt, or, earning income, than I do investing in this market, but that’s a separate story.
The boomers really lucked out. Pretty much anything they put their money in went up up up in value. Stock market, real estate, bonds, commodities, hell, at one point in boomer’s lives they could put money into a CD and get 15% interest! Year after year it was raises and increases in pay…
The trend however looks to be over, it’s like they’re trying to reinflate everything but it’s not working. The stock market is up, but not where is was in 2008; real estate is down; interest rates will be forever low…At this point my investment philosphy is save save save and earn earn earn because money based rent seeking investments have for the most part turned into outright speculation and bubble timing.
Most people under 35 i’ve talked to informally over the years all joke about social security not being around by the time we retire.
“The gist of the article was yes, but probably reduced amounts, and you should save more than you are by investing in 401ks or IRAs.”
“Does the surplus, by law, have to be invested in T-Notes which allow the government to run a *huge* deficit w/o explaining how huge the deficit really is, and that they are merely robbing peter to pay paul? If so, then I think it’s form over substance and it’s still a govt program and a disguised income tax.”
So your point is more with to do with the fact that it allows a huge amount of current spending that would otherwise be unfunded? That is, if there were no imbalance in SS incoming and outgoing, it would be a tax sorta to the extent the HCR mandate is a tax (which is a debate I have trouble getting that engaged in), but significantly different in character from what is actually happening? In which case, the “tax” would only be that portion in excess of current outlays of SS?
“at one point in boomer’s lives they could put money into a CD and get 15% interest!”
Oh, that will happen again in your lifetime, HD, and most likely you won’t be happy about it.
“Most people under 35 i’ve talked to informally over the years all joke about social security not being around by the time we retire. ”
Yeah, but that’s based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the system. It’ll still be around, it just won’t be nearly as generous.
“Lookingto spend a night in a hotel with the wife Sat night (and be back in time for the Bears game :). Does anyone know of any nice hotels with any specials, etc.?”
one word one place Sybaris.
ok i kid, but for date night wife and i did the hard rock, once the W, and last winter were about to do the trump (something came up). but screw the deals if you doing a one day “staycation” shell outthe cash and rock a suite with a killer view its only one night do it right!
“The boomers really lucked out. Pretty much anything they put their money in went up up up in value. Stock market, real estate, bonds, commodities, hell, at one point in boomer’s lives they could put money into a CD and get 15% interest! Year after year it was raises and increases in pay…”
First, as clio would say, cheer up!! Second, if you’re right, you’ll have a chance to buy into real estate at more than fair prices. And who knows about other asset classes. What happens when the boomers try to cash out (there are some models of effects of demographics on the stock market that would not bode well for the future)?
“So your point is more with to do with the fact that it allows a huge amount of current spending that would otherwise be unfunded? That is, if there were no imbalance in SS incoming and outgoing, it would be a tax sorta to the extent the HCR mandate is a tax (which is a debate I have trouble getting that engaged in), but significantly different in character from what is actually happening? In which case, the “tax” would only be that portion in excess of current outlays of SS?”
Yes, if SS were basically self-sustaining (subject only to short-term-ish smoothly loans, going both ways b/t SS and the general fund), then yeah, I could well deem it not a “income tax” (still a tax, tho), but it has been for the time since the rates were increased under Reagan, and …
I’ve come around to thinking about taxation on a quasi-career-length taxation expectation. If taxes are lower now, but only because of borrowing in excess of any reasonable growth projections (which, of course, it has been for some time, whether 5, 10, 30 years or somewhere in between), then we are just deferring the taxes and I have to be doing so much better now, that I can afford/avoid the necessary future increase. I don’t see how we avoid a revenue reckoning in my working lifetime, so I’m very negative about tax rates on future income, and I don’t make enough now to run away and hide then.
well HD thanks for not buying stocks at least because from your non-participation you are making it cheaper to invest for people like myself who plan on beating inflation long term
are you seriously putting money under your mattress? lol
15% interest rates benefited the boomers sitting on a lot of cash.
“Oh, that will happen again in your lifetime, HD, and most likely you won’t be happy about it.”
“there are some models of effects of demographics on the stock market that would not bode well for the future”
Where’s the model that shows *that* ponzi scheme turning out *well*?
“15% interest rates benefited the boomers sitting on a lot of cash. ”
Their real $$ holdings fell bc of inflation. The only way to benefit was long term CDs, which I *bet* will be much, much more rare next time there is 10+% inflation.
I’m not really putting money in my mattress but I’m doing the equivalent of it.
70% of all stock trades are robo-traders who skim money off the top. Most of them make money *every day* without fail. It’s not about fundamentals, or investing, it’s about split second speculation done by algorithms.
I can make more money through my earning power, or paying down debt, or saving, than I can stand to gain by speculating in the stock market.
I make no judgments on how anyone else invests and I wish them the best of luck. I’ll sit peacefully on the sidelines and be quite content with that.
“are you seriously putting money under your mattress? lol”
“there are some models of effects of demographics on the stock market that would not bode well for the future”
“Where’s the model that shows *that* ponzi scheme turning out *well*?”
All major asset pricing models, I think (if we are talking about the relationship between demographics in terms of its effects on inflows/outflows as opposed to its effect on real economic activity, and the two things while related and difficult to disentangle empirically are distinguishable in principle). If everyone believed some of the direst predictions, they’d all take their money out of the market now (or earlier) and force the “not well” to happen sooner than later. The relationship is also much debated (but what isn’t?):
http://www.kansascityfed.org/Publicat/sympos/2004/pdf/Poterba2004.pdf
The meme of the hipster arose from concepts of today’s youth being broke, burdened with student loans and low paying jobs, with no foreseeable path to prosperity. And quite frankly, they’re not interested in those same material things.
The hipster tv commercials out there now are for cheap cars and cheap treats. Luxury brands and expensive tastes are the antithesis of hipster. This mentality wont’ change over night. There’s been a demographic and cultural shift. You’re not going to get masses of hipsters interested in the stock market like during the 80’s when everybody wanted to bud foxx.
Today is do or die for Pat Quinn’s massive 66% tax increase. He campaigned on 33% but my how his campaign promises rang hollow.
Contact your state elected representative and senator and let them know your opposition to business as usual in Springfield. There is nothing that must be done today that can’t be done on Thursday.
http://www.elections.il.gov/DistrictLocator/DistrictOfficialSearchByAddress.aspx
Please contact them at their Springfield office (317 area code).
“I can make more money through … saving, than I can stand to gain by speculating in the stock market.”
Seriously, HD, there are plenty of investment options that include minimal capital risk and provide better returns than you current laddered CDs. I tend to agree with you that growth stocks are pure speculation, relying, fundamentally, on ponzi economics, but that’s not all that’s out there by any stretch. But, I appreciate that you neither have the risk tolerance for it, nor the inclination to expend the time/effort to figure out an equity-based investment strategy which fits your risk profile.
“All major asset pricing models, I think”
But they’re all run by people talking their book!! [i’m feeling alarmist *and* negative today]
“Contact your state elected representative and senator and let them know your opposition to business as usual in Springfield. There is nothing that must be done today that can’t be done on Thursday.”
For the many of us under the thumb of Cullerton, there is little which could be more of a waste of time.
“For the many of us under the thumb of Cullerton, there is little which could be more of a waste of time.”
State reps are up every election cycle. They are more than likely much easier to lean on.
“Seriously, HD, there are plenty of investment options that include minimal capital risk and provide better returns than you current laddered CDs. I tend to agree with you that growth stocks are pure speculation, relying, fundamentally, on ponzi economics, but that’s not all that’s out there by any stretch. But, I appreciate that you neither have the risk tolerance for it, nor the inclination to expend the time/effort to figure out an equity-based investment strategy which fits your risk profile.”
But he’s (a) paying down student debt and (b) saving for a downpayment. Isn’t (a) the best thing to be doing right now? And given some risk aversion about liquidity re (b), CDs are fine? Seriously, do you have a general strategy for him that makes sense given (a) and (b).
p.s I have a significant down payment already but it never hurts to have more.
“Seriously, do you have a general strategy for him that makes sense given (a) and (b).”
Well, not (a), of course, and (b) has a horizon issue, as you note. Still, I think you’d agree that not *every* equity investment is speculation based, as speculation is commonly used in financial discussions.
“State reps are up every election cycle. They are more than likely much easier to lean on.”
Fritchey. As in, now on the Cook County board, and zoning lawyer for Acosta on the Castle on the Kennedy re-zoning. Not much point there, either.
“p.s I have a significant down payment already but it never hurts to have more.”
In one not entirely unreasonable view of the world, the easiest money you can make (especially for someone with your risk preferences) is to put down a bigger downpayment.
“Still, I think you’d agree that not *every* equity investment is speculation based, as speculation is commonly used in financial discussions.”
Definitely agreed, but not speculation based does not mean not without significant risk. Given where the market is today, I’m not sure it’s easy to assemble a portfolio with negligible risk of a major downward adjustment (say 20 percent decline) that has enough upside risk to be worth the effort especially if you’re not investing a lot to begin with. And (a) renders a lot of this moot (although I don’t know terms of the student debt).
“70% of all stock trades are robo-traders who skim money off the top. Most of them make money *every day* without fail. It’s not about fundamentals, or investing, it’s about split second speculation done by algorithms.”
its not split second speculation its split second arbitrage its just that the margins have narrowed so much (used to have bids and asks sometimes dollars a part) that you need computers to do the arbitrage for it to be profitable now a days. plus these computers do serve a purpose… liquidity
and if you think buying a dividend aristocrat is “gambling” well ok… but just think how screwed everyone will be if walmart, target, mcdonalds, pepsi, coke, exxon, chevron, abbot labs, johnson & johnson etc. go out of business
HD: Options! You can make money no matter which way the market moves! (Tim McCready)
Does anyone know of any nice hotels with any specials, etc.
Let’s just say that there is a 5 star hotel that starts with the letter P that has a great deal for guests that ask for the Northwestern Memorial Hospital rate. That my friends is the tip of the week. It is still not cheap like the Marriott but for the money it is one of the best hotels in the city.
Otherwise hit priceline and get the Hotel Felix for $79 per night.
When I was 12 I thought the Sybaris would be so much fun because there is a water slide in the room …
Like Groove said I want to do it right, not looking for cheap per se, but for a package that is fun.
The Palomar package includes:
Deluxe accommodations
$25 restaurant credit for every night of your stay
Complimentary popcorn and in-room movie nightly
Morning hot or cold chai tea lattes
2 daily insider tips to enjoy the city
Afternoon specialty hot chocolates with all the fix’ns
The Kimpton evening wine hour
Hot apple cider (spiked for mom and dad, not spiked for the kids!)
Family board games in our living room
Thanks for the tip jp3! Is the last letter A?
good guess B. you are right on track!
As predicted, the three bank owned units are now under contract. The two bed duplex went first and the duplex-downs in the $550,000 range went under contract prior to the weekend. These were nice and were ABLE to be sold with few hoops to jump.
http://chicagorealestatelocal.blogspot.com/2011/01/wicker-park-reo-if-you-price-it-and-it.html