3-Bedroom Oriole Park Cape Cod Sells in Just 4 Months: 7640 W. Rascher
We last chattered about this 3-bedroom Cape Cod at 7640 W. Rascher in the Oriole Park neighborhood of Norwood Park in August 2011.
See our prior chatter here.
Many of you just didn’t know anything about this neighborhood or greatly underestimated what houses sell for in a neighborhood with one of the best public schools in the city.
Comments like this one from Bob were common:
“Well this granny is being awfully slow to compromise considering the size of the pool of buyers for this is about to be cut significantly come 10/1. $13,650 down gets it done now vs 40k+ in October. I think granny might’ve snoozed too long in that chair & this one will be fun to follow.”
On the market just 4 months, it was listed for $389,900 and recently sold for $365,000.
If you recall, it was built in 1954 on an oversized 40×125 lot. It had a finished basement along with a main level family room with custom stone fireplace.
The kitchen had white cabinets, granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances.
The listing said that 2 bedrooms are on the second floor with the third on the main floor along with one of the two bathrooms.
The house had central air, a brick patio and a 2-car garage.
Jelena Zande at Century 21 Elm had the listing.
7640 W. Rascher: 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, no square footage listed, 2 car garage
- Last sold before 1986
- Originally listed in July 2011 for $389,900
- Was still in August 2011 for $389,900
- Sold in October 2011 for $365,000
- Taxes of $2714
- Central Air
- Custom stone fireplace
- Bedroom #1: 14×11 (second floor)
- Bedroom #2: 14×10 (second floor)
- Bedroom #3: 10×10 (main floor)
- Family room: 17×14 (main floor)
- Recreation room: 20×11 (lower level)
Nice home, congrats to the buyers on a great purchase!
Not surprised by Bob’s comment. A lot of people around here no nothing about most of the City.
someone from Cribchatter was wrong about something? next you’re gonna tell me that Kardashians don’t marry for life! Oh wait…:D
This has no bearing on the property, but isn’t this close to where John Wayne Gacy lived? If I recall correctly, Gacy lived on Summerdale, a few blocks east of Cumberland. But his house was in an unincorporated zone, not the city of Chicago.
They tore down Gacy’s home and someone built a new home on the property. I don’t believe in haunts, but not sure I’d want to live where something like that happened.
Bob, like nearly every other poster on this site, is incredibly negative and amazingly misinformed about Chicago real estate. Pessimistic, rude and stupid is no way to go through life, Bob.
“Well this granny is being awfully slow to compromise considering the size of the pool of buyers for this is about to be cut significantly come 10/1. $13,650 down gets it done now vs 40k+ in October. I think granny might’ve snoozed too long in that chair & this one will be fun to follow.”
Congrats to the buyers?? No, congratz to the granny who successfully snookered a family from a younger generation.
Also betting this was financed with an FHA, low-downpayment loan.
If this little 3 BR on a city lot in Norwood Park can sell for $365,000, it makes me feel better about the value of my 5 BR in Highland Park (not that I’m selling anytime soon).
“If this little 3 BR on a city lot in Norwood Park can sell for $365,000, it makes me feel better about the value of my 5 BR in Highland Park (not that I’m selling anytime soon).”
Why would you think that the value of a home in the city has anything to do with your rural community?
“If this little 3 BR on a city lot in Norwood Park can sell for $365,000, it makes me feel better about the value of my 5 BR in Highland Park (not that I’m selling anytime soon).”
i dont think theres really any reason to feel good about living in highland park…
“Congrats to the buyers?? No, congratz to the granny who successfully snookered a family from a younger generation.”
What’s a reasonable price? I know people who bought a similar sized but less-nice house in a less-nice school district (Garvey rather than Oriole) around here for something like $325K in 2002. If that’s a reasonable benchmark then this place is lower than the 2002 nominal price because I’d take this place at $365K w/o even thinking about it.
This neighborhood, along with edgebrook, saugnash and wildwood, and edison park are priced artificially high because of the city employee residency requirement. These are places that city workers of all stripes flee to when they need to buy in the city; because quite frankly, most of them don’t earn enough to live in the green zone. So these handful of neighborhoods command a ridiculously high price per sq ft due to the sheer number of people interested in living there due to the residency requirement. The desirablity of the neighborhood is the force behind the good schools, which in turn fuels additional desirability. This house according to the assessor (Assuming an unfinished basement and attic) is a whopping 1,018 feet. WOW. This crappy tiny cape cod (cape cods are fugly!) in the far NW corner of the city sells at a higher price psf than the north shore.
Of course, you’re living large in teh basement, and there is only one picture of one bedroom, meanign the other two are probably upstairs in the dormered attic with super slanted ceilings. Thank god I don’t have teh residency requirement applying to me. Those folks get screwed.
Take away the residency requirement and this city neighborhood would fall flat on its face. Nobody in their right mind would pay over $300 psf for this place but for the residency requirement. They’d all be living in Palatine where you can get a 2,500 sq ft ranch on 1/2 acre land for the same price. Sure it’s a longer commute but you can’t tell me some family who would buy this cape cod but for the residency requirement wouldn’t choose this instead.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Palatine/1715-S-Edgar-St-60067/home/12569448
“i dont think theres really any reason to feel good about living in highland park…”
Highland Park rocks! (or should I say smooth jazzes) I saw Steely Dan perform at Ravinia this summer.
To answer NYC and Too Big:
Highland Park is not a “rural” community. We’re not talking about Marengo. HP is an established part of the Chicago metro area, equivalent to the Main Line suburbs of Philadelphia.
And if you haven’t lived there, don’t knock it until you try it. There’s a lot to feel good about living in HP. Warm neighbors, walkable streets, interesting architecture, Ravinia, good restaurants, a beautiful lakefront, easy public transportation.
“They’d all be living in Palatine where you can get a 2,500 sq ft ranch on 1/2 acre land for the same price. Sure it’s a longer commute but you can’t tell me some family who would buy this cape cod but for the residency requirement wouldn’t choose this instead.”
Palatine, seriously? That’s your comp? (And do you think the basement is included in the square footage?)
If Palatine is a comp, why don’t you move out there already instead of scoping place in OIP. I think you’ve suggested prices out there are pretty reasonable by now.
“They’d all be living in Palatine where you can get a 2,500 sq ft ranch on 1/2 acre land for the same price”
so that brings up the question, do Mrs Icarus and I just surrender and get that house in Palatine or do we attempt to enjoy city living a little while longer and hope for something decent on the NW side?
” I saw Steely Dan perform at Ravinia this summer.”
Can’t get much better…
I’d live in Highland Park before I’d live in any these south/north-western SFH areas within “the city.”
According to HD, the 350,000 or so people who live on Chicago’s NW side only do because of the residency requirement. You are a moron!
Have you even been to Sauganash or Edgebrook? Believe me, few City workers live there.
I would live in Sauganash, Edgebrook and Edison Park before I lived in Highland Park.
And if you haven’t lived there, don’t knock it until you try it. There’s a lot to feel good about living in HP. Shitty neighbors, disjointed streets that aren’t walkable, mostly dated architecture, Ravinia, one or two passable restaurants, a beautiful lakefront, and access to Metra.
You’re pretty naive to believe that a tiny cape cod in Oriole Park is desirable because it’s in the city. Without the residency requirement, you damn well bet those middle class couples would take their $365,000 and buy a bigger house in the suburbs. That’s why despite all the chatter, we still hve the residency requirement, 40 years now too since Daley the First.
“Vlajos on November 3rd, 2011 at 3:12 pm
According to HD, the 350,000 or so people who live on Chicago’s NW side only do because of the residency requirement. You are a moron!
Have you even been to Sauganash or Edgebrook? Believe me, few City workers live there.”
“I’d live in Highland Park before I’d live in any these south/north-western SFH areas within “the city.””
Ah, but would you live in palatine?
“so that brings up the question, do Mrs Icarus and I just surrender and get that house in Palatine or do we attempt to enjoy city living a little while longer and hope for something decent on the NW side?”
Stay put (unless it makes sense to mail in your keys) and see where you are in a couple years and where you want to live. After all, you’re not in HD’s position of having a wife who is demanding to be settled with the new baby (or is that about to change for you??).
“So these handful of neighborhoods command a ridiculously high price per sq ft due to the sheer number of people interested in living there due to the residency requirement”
So wait. What you are saying is that prices are based on supply and demand. Shocking!
Vlajos,
If that’s seriously your opinion of HP, you’re entitled to it. I assume you’ve spent a lot of time there and really know the place.
I have lived there for about a decade and find it beautiful, though parts, especially west of Highway 41, are nothing special. Someday, I’d love to take you on a walking tour around my neighborhood. The ravines are lovely, and the residential architecture is quite interesting with lots of 19th-century homes that are well-cared for.
“According to HD, the 350,000 or so people who live on Chicago’s NW side only do because of the residency requirement. You are a moron!”
Where did he say that?
“So wait. What you are saying is that prices are based on supply and demand. Shocking!”
I think he is saying, once again, that prices are being propped up by manipulating supply and demand.
HD – STFU and go drive around in your overpriced 20k used beater w/60k miles!!!
“Ah, but would you live in palatine?”
I don’t know where Palatine is, any more than I know where Old-Nor-Ridge-Park-Ellen-Brook are.
In the city, I wouldn’t want to be much more than .5 miles from the lakefront (.75 miles if in a SFH); in the burbs, I wouldn’t want to be much more than a mile (perhaps as far as 1.5 miles, if the route to the lakefront were especially nice on foot).
“Someday, I’d love to take you on a walking tour around my neighborhood. ”
Casual Encounters is on Craigslist.
“I think he is saying, once again, that prices are being propped up by manipulating supply and demand.”
Does a house located in a desirable school district have its supply/demand manipulated? After all, couldn’t they just make better schools in other areas?
“Does a house located in a desirable school district have its supply/demand manipulated?”
Ask someone who has been redistricted from a good school to a bad one. Or, vice versa.
“After all, couldn’t they just make better schools in other areas?”
LOL. They aren’t trying?
“I crawl like a viper
Through these suburban streets
Make love to these women
Languid and bittersweet
I’ll rise when the sun goes down
Cover every game in town
A world of my own
I’ll make it my home sweet home”
— sung by a 60-something Donald Fagen to a sold-out crowd in beautiful Highland Park, Illinois, August 2011
clio – STFU and stand in front of a mirror and admire your overpriced 20k plastic surgery that needs fixing!!!!
Remove the residency requirement and I would be the entire farm that a 1,018 foot cape cod, with 2 bedrooms in the attic, and a finished basement family room, just a mile or two west of the 2nd busiest airport in the world not sell for anywhere near $365,000. The proof is in the pudding because head a few blocks directly north into park ridge and you can buy a cape cod twice the size for half the price per sq ft. The area also has great schools and great amenities and is in the flight path of the air port.
http://www.redfin.com/homes-for-sale#!market=chicago®ion_id=25798®ion_type=2&sold_within_days=30&status=130&uipt=4,3,2,1&v=6
The distance between these two houses is walking distance. absent a ‘chicago’ address, is the park ridge house really worth half as much psf?
DUH it’s the residency requirement because anybody with half a brain would move a few blocks north
Bad link, here’s the correct property
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Park-Ridge/1529-Grove-Ave-60068/home/13565324
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=1529+grove+to+7640+rascher&saddr=1529+grove&daddr=7640+rascher&hl=en&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=55.806079,79.013672&geocode=Ffq9gAIdIujD-inVG1xmmskPiDHAvWDrXbAJvw%3BFZ-MgAId8f7D-ilxjj2PgMkPiDHu7-EpmEmRvA&vpsrc=0&t=h&z=15
Just a short walk up Canfield for twice the house for a cheaper price. Ha!
“DUH it’s the residency requirement because anybody with half a brain would move a few blocks north”
Sure. And properties near the water command a premium due to the views. Supply/Demand. There are many factors that determine demand. What is your point? That you have managed to identify one of them? Congratulations?
“Many of you just didn’t know anything about this neighborhood or greatly underestimated what houses sell for in a neighborhood with one of the best public schools in the city.”
and to expand upon that…..
THE Residency requirement.
I didn’t see anyone else mention the residency requirement.
It’s an interesting little tidbit someone who knows nothing about this neighborhood might be interested in knowing about.
Why else would a 1,018 sq ft cape cod sell for $365,000?
“Just a short walk up Canfield for twice the house for a cheaper price.”
Do you *really* think it’s twice the square footage?
Its bigger that’s for sure. The assessor thinks so too. I understand the assesor is not the be all end all sq ft determinator but there is a huge discrepancy between the two house sq ft wise. And there are actually pictures of the attic bedroooms for the house in park ridge.
“clio – STFU and stand in front of a mirror and admire your overpriced 20k plastic surgery that needs fixing!!!!”
How do u know I have had plastic surgery? do you know me? WTF?
If Rahm were smart, his big concession to teachers, cops, and firemen (in exchange for the longer school hours, etc.) would be to end the city residency requirements.
That would be a mild sweetener to help make wage concessions more tolerable.
The requirements have no purpose, except to keep workers in line politically with the ward organizations.
“The requirements have no purpose, except to keep workers in line politically with the ward organizations.”
With the unintended consequences of making three bedroom cape cods more expensive on a psf basis than the average psf of Glencoe….
HD – how the f do you get any work done during the day when you post every other minute?! Seriously, you probably could take on extra work and make enough money in one month to buy a new chevy if you just stayed away from cribchatter.
Not in HD’s position and in so much as we can control it, we won’t be for at least another year.
“After all, you’re not in HD’s position of having a wife who is demanding to be settled with the new baby (or is that about to change for you??).”
Typical attorney/judge behavior:
http://news.yahoo.com/dad-caught-video-beating-daughter-needs-help-070228201.html
Atrocious!! So HD – don’t you dare criticize those in the financial/banking sector. Their behavior is a billion zillion times better than the behavior exhibited by most attorneys!!
clio – I spend a lot of time on the phone and not in court today. that explains the cribchatter postings.
Icarus – my wife is most assuredly not demanding to be settled with the new baby. In fact I am for various reasons. She wants to rent for another 3 years.
HD – may i ask how young your wife is and if there are plans to have more children? You don’t need to answer as that would compromise your anominity, but you probably see where i”m going with the line of questioning.
We aren’t old but we are not spring chickens and I’m getting very weary of condo living.
I’m in my middle 30s and my wife is about my agge. We have one child about a year old. We rent an apartment. Its sufficies for now. Its cheap , safe, and a great building with wonderful neighbors who as of late form a large part of my social activities. (Oh you are drinking wine tonight? Letme grab the baby monitor….) I’ve paid off a ton of my student loans, my wife has paid off hers completely, and we have some good savings in cash and of course iras and stuff. What sucks is 3 flights of stairs, vintage apt living and street parking. Soon school and private tuition will be a pita in the area. There is alsoa lot of riff raff in city living. There are regular muggings in old irivng and garage breakns are a daily occurence on everyblock. My neighbor was burglarized over the summer in the apt across the hall. Its getting to be time to settle down for the next 18 years and I’m getting tired of my situation. Housing bubble is midway thru, time to grab a deal. I want another baby but daycare is pretty expensive and its a lot of work for two working parents and I don’t know if my wife is up to have another one.
Honestly HD, you seem to have your stuff under control and your wife seems like a very capable and balanced person. I am sure you will make a good purchase and end up being very happy. One or two kids does not make a big difference either way you guys will do well. All the best to you, your little one and your wife.
Dan #2:
“Highland Park is not a “rural” community.”
Don’t even correct NYC. He’s an idiot DB with no sense of the area. And claims to be willing to pay an east coast premium for a city address. But in reality we know he’s here because he couldn’t hack it there.
Highland Park “rural”. LMAO that’s some funny shit dude.
Lake Bluff has a 370 acre (Potemkin) farm right on the lake.
http://www.crabtreefarm.org/history
Bob,
Thanks for the support. NYC indeed seems to know very little about the Chicago area.
i commend Danny for quoting one of Steely Dan’s greatest lines from one of their greatest songs.
Here’s another:
“Are you with me Dr. Wu? Are you really just a shadow of the man, that I once knew? Are you crazy, are you high, or just an ordinary guy? Have you done all you could do? Are you with me, doctor? Can you hear me, doctor?”
Now key in that smooth sax solo. One of their best songs, and least well known, from the album “Katie Lies” (1975).
“Honestly HD, you seem to have your stuff under control ”
Huh, really? The guy lives in a gang/crime ridden neighborhood and is willing to risk the safety of his wife and baby because he is too cheap to buy a house/condo in a better area (even though he can afford it) – THAT is what you think having your “stuff under control” is?!! Good God – I would hate to see what your life is like.
“We aren’t old but we are not spring chickens and I’m getting very weary of condo living.”
Ditch the city then. I’m just saying. There are plenty of deals in various suburbs along the train lines that will get you downtown quickly and easily. No- you don’t have to be in Palatine but if that has great schools for your kids- so be it. Everyone here is making fun of Highland Park but it has an excellent high school. Isn’t that why you would want to move there? Good schools? Isn’t that why EVERYONE has moved to the suburbs for the last 50 years? Less crime, better schools?
My question with the Edgebrook/Sauganash/Edison Park crowd is- what do you do about high school? Where do all those kids GO? They’re not going to Taft- that’s for sure. Taft doesn’t even begin to compete with the nearby excellent Park Ridge high school. Why have to worry about it? Just live in a nearby town with a good high school- for goodness sakes.
HD,
With the economy staying bad, I’d expect more burglaries in the future, not less. I know some people in a situation kind of like yours. They live in a small vintage three flat on the Northwest side, and they’ve experienced some of the same riff raff issues where they are. They also have to make the schools decision soon. I hope things work out for you and them.
“Its getting to be time to settle down for the next 18 years and I’m getting tired of my situation.”
my sentiments exactly.
“Its getting to be time to settle down for the next 18 years and I’m getting tired of my situation.”
There are plenty of people in this situation. At least HD doesn’t have to sell anything. That puts him in the drivers seat in every way imaginable.
“Ditch the city then. I’m just saying. ”
Sabrina, moving to the suburbs feels like I’m giving up. I know that is irrational but that is how i feel.
“That puts him in the drivers seat in every way imaginable.”
,….yeah – of a 20 thousand dollar used chevy w/ 60,000 miles!!!!
“Sabrina, moving to the suburbs feels like I’m giving up. I know that is irrational but that is how i feel.”
You might not feel the same way once you have kids and you try for years to get them into Park District programs as that family did in Lincoln Square.
But anyway- if it MUST be the city- look in neighborhoods like Jefferson Park, Bowmanville, Galewood and other nabes that have deals. Pullman also has deals- but I understand not everyone wants to live in a historic landmark district.
I don’t understand the appeal of the “city” when you talk about those areas such as Jefferson park, bowmanville, galewood, ravenswood, buena park, roscoe village, etc. – these are nothing more than “pseudo suburbs”. Seriously, why not just move to the real suburbs. True city living is found in the streeterville/downtown/gold coast area – everything else can be found in the real suburbs (and for much cheaper)
As you often say clio, it’s psychological! For those of us that grew up in the city it’s about the familiarity and proximity.
“I don’t understand the appeal of the “city” when you talk about those areas such as Jefferson park, bowmanville, galewood, ravenswood, buena park, roscoe village, etc. –”
Clio, I have to admit, your comment above about being in the drivers seat was funny and apropos. But don’t let it get to your head.
“Its getting to be time to settle down for the next 18 years and I’m getting tired of my situation”
But now you also know why some people bought during the bubble years. It wasn’t always about price. Sometimes it’s about your situation in life. What if your kid was 3 now, and your wife was 8 months pregnant with your 2nd? You’d be buying a place tomorrow regardless of where the market was.
I am in a good position. Its just that student loans and interest from two law degrees have eaten up over 150k of our household earning in the last 6 or 7 years. That puts us at a significant disadvantage to buy a house bc a 33pc or more downpayment I need to engineer a 1600 a month payment eats up a large chunk of my liquid savings. Without student loans I’d be in my 30s sitting on over a quarter mil in liquid cash but I’m not. And I’ve still got student loans left. Everybody forgets that there is interest to be paid on student loans and that for the first 10 years or so its all interest payments basically with little principal prepyament.
No I wouldn’t chuk. I would move to crystal lake et al just to own during the bubble years bc it was all that I could afford. Now that being said, its quite clear that I understand the appeal at the time, and I chose not to make that decision. My income today wasn’t what it was in 2003-2004. My income jumped in 2005 along with my wifes and we talked about buying but thank god for thehousingbubbleblog.com. That site set me straight.
I doubt a granny would have a black-and-white pic of Charlie Chaplin, or a Mies Van der Rohe chair.
The NW side neighborhoods will retain some relative-value because of never-going-lower gasoline prices.
“It wasn’t always about price. Sometimes it’s about your situation in life. What if your kid was 3 now, and your wife was 8 months pregnant with your 2nd? You’d be buying a place tomorrow regardless of where the market was.”
Yep, I was as bearish as can be, and I would have been an owner the whole way down.
Tehre’s a lawyer here that bought in early bubble 2001; bought a 2nd home without selling the first home in 2007 because he thought he getting a deal and waived the contingency, and today owns two homes that are declining in value. He could have saved the cost of his kids college’s educations had he rented for two years in 2007 until 2009 instead of doubling down. Some of us in the office even told him “you should sell your 1st house and then rent in the dist you want until this bubble passes” and well sometimes people don’t listen. Costly mistakes. Not that I’m better than everyone else, but I do my best to avoid costly mistakes.
I have a buddy who also doubled down in 2007; I warned him, I said, your second house is the most expensive house on your block to ever sell and yet it’s not the nicest home on the block. YOu may want to hang out for a while, prices will probably start to fall. He said, “Prices won’t fall” and in the end he lost both houses.
“No I wouldn’t chuk. I would move to crystal lake et al just to own during the bubble years bc it was all that I could afford. ”
No. I’m saying if you were in that position in 2003-2004. Your current savings, current income, one kid and another on the way. I think you might have been a buyer along with everyone else.
The Fed (interest rates) and USGvt. (Fannie, Freddie, etc.) have manipulated the housing market so much that nobody can really know where the market is, or where it should be.
What would interest rates be at, without al the intervention? Certainly not this low, so housing prices are distorted upwards via artificially low interest rates.
Eventually, the raw math reasserts itself, but the Q is when. Look at Japan with 200% debt to GDP ratio with 1% interest rates, and Italy with 125% ratio, but it has 6% interest rates!!
I recall talking with a realtor in 2001 about 2-3 flats in the GZ. For amusement, I ran a proforma, took the NOI (net operating income), then applied a 5% cap rate and suggested to the realtor that was the value of the property. He laughed and scoffed, saying “There hasn’t been a multi-family (GZ) investment property that’s sold on a cap rate basis since 1995.” (they all sold at cash flow negative or breakeven).
Here we are 10 years after 2001, 15 years after 1995, and only now are properties trading on cash flow/cap rates???!!!
Anyone have a comment?
Speculation differs from investment, in that speculation seeks a profit via surfing the waves in-and-around government distortions in the marketplace. Investing is basically about fundamentals, which don’t exist, and haven’t for a long time.
helmethofer: investors bought properties for capital appreciation. And it worked quite well until about 2008. Which explains a lot of the dumpy rental stock in chicago. Investors bought, were barely making any money if any at all per month, they put no money into the building for years, and then sold it to 1) some developer who was gonna put a luxury home or a 3 flat in its place or 2) a greater fool who also was hoping for some capital appreciation. It’s really quite that simple.
“Here we are 10 years after 2001, 15 years after 1995, and only now are properties trading on cash flow/cap rates???!!!
Anyone have a comment?”
yeah you’re talking over my head again. It would be like me telling someone they should overclock their CPU and increase the RAM, run a defrag and update the firmware.
Its really sad our pilicy makers, via the tax code, encouraged RE speculation as well. On the other hand I can’t complain that encouraged people who built substantial wealth off real estate to keep their chips on the table/remaining in that asset class.
Shut up, Bob.
You couldn’t hack it in the big apple so you move to chicago, log onto a chicago RE blog, and start calling suburbs rural. You’re such an effete urbanite metrosexual I bet you’ve never even been to a real rural area/farm.
Bob,
I moved to Chicago for love.
My point was that Dan #2 had no point. The value of a home in NW Chicago has little bearing on the value of his sweet ass home in Highland Park. It was sarcasm. He wanted someone to tell him his house and neighborhood are great. Get love from people, not a real estate blog. You are so defensive, that you turn like a cornered rat, and lash out.
So, again. Shut up, Bob.
“Everybody forgets that there is interest to be paid on student loans and that for the first 10 years or so its all interest payments basically with little principal prepyament.”
Ain’t that the truth.
“My income jumped in 2005 along with my wifes and we talked about buying but thank god for thehousingbubbleblog.com. That site set me straight.”
Oh if only I had known about that site, this site and had access to all the brain trusts here before I bought my 2/1 condo.
HD and Icarus, while you are correct that many people lost a lot of money in the past 5-10 years in real estate, both of you should be looking forward. In 2017, people will be posting that the SMART ones were the ones who bought in 2011-2012. Remember, where there is a bottom, there will be a top…….
Sabrina is right. Moving to the suburbs makes the most sense for people like HD and Icarus. But Icarus is right too, though as he admits, he’s a bit irrational. It does feel like giving up.
I went through that whole process a decade ago as a dyed in the wool Chicagoan who had vowed to never leave. Having kids really changed my priorities, for better or for worse. Once we had one and were planning another, it was like I couldn’t get out of the city fast enough. Some kind of nesting instinct, I suppose. And unlike HD, my wife and I were living in ELP, in a full-service high rise with every amenity and no burglaries across the hall.
Once we started house-hunting on the North Shore, I got to really know the area much better and to want to live there. As I’ve said many times, if you find the right suburb, preferably a North Shore one or an Oak Park/River Forest, you aren’t really giving up too much, and you’re gaining a lot.
One of my loans I’ve paid $12,000 in principal thus far and $14,000 in interest and that’s with a ridiculously low interest rate too….
Dan #2 – I’m curious – what makes the North Shore different than the western suburbs? (and please don’t say the lake – bc we both know that 99% of the residents there don’t actually go to or see the lake). honest question.
The downside of the burbs is really the longer commute times. I know there is the express trains but you still have to get to the trains and if you need to stay late at work the schedule after 5:30 or 6:00 turns into all local. The UPNW line has lots of trains between 3:30 and 5:30 and a 6:01 and then a 6:30 local, 7:30 local….few law firm attorneys leave before 5:30 p.m. I know of a few offices where the firm policy is that no one leaves before 6:30 p.m….so you leave at 6:30 p.m., catch the 7:30 p.m. train, get to the station at 8:00, walk to the car, drive home, get in at 8:10 p.m. booo
HD and Icarus, there are many people like you – what usually happens is that you will slowly get broken down and finally just give in (much like people hanging on to their houses are doing right now). People like you guys (who actually care about safety, economy and are responsible but who do NOT have a ton of money) will absolutely move to the burbs – the city is only for the very poor and very rich (when dealing with raising kids) – oh, and I am not talking about the peripheral neighborhoods of the city (which are just like suburbs anyway).
I like leaving the office and being home in less than 20 minutes door to door without the use of a car, what a quality of life enhancer, let me tell ya
Clio,
I don’t know the western suburbs too well so I couldn’t really comment on what makes them different. I like Oak Park and River Forest a lot, but I haven’t spent much time in Elmhurst, Naperville, etc. I have seen Oak Brook and really dislike it (sorry) because it’s designed for cars, not people. Every road out there seems like a highway.
Basically, whether it’s north or west, I like suburbs that feel like the city, with houses relatively close together, tree-shaded streets, garages either in back or somewhat set back so as not to be the focal point of each house, varied architecture that’s mainly pre-WW2, train station close by, walkable streets with shops/restaurants/schools in close range and interesting stores that aren’t chains (HP falls somewhat short on this front, unfortunately).
You say 99% of people don’t pay attention to the lake. You’re probably right. But I’m one of the 1%. We’re a 5-minute bike ride from a beautiful park/beach, and my sons and I ride over there 2-3 times a week during the summer just to hang out. For me, there’s nothing more relaxing than looking out over the vast blue expanse of Lake Michigan and hearing the waves roll in. If that isn’t important to someone, and I’m guessing it’s not to most people, than any western suburb with the characteristics I described above makes as much sense as the North Shore.
Any firm with an explicit policy like that is basically actively working to increase their staff churn rate.
HD:
I completely sympathize re. the train schedule, because I used to be tied to that as well when I worked downtown. For the last few years I’ve worked on the North Shore, so I’m an easy 20-minute drive from work. I’ve kind of forgotten the whole train thing and its inconvenience, so that’s definitely a factor to weigh. Of course if you end up in Evanston, Oak Park or Wilmette the L is an option too, and you’re not tied down to a train schedule.
Dan #2, thanks – just wanted to get another perspective. I actually feel that the people on the north shore are very different than the people in the western suburbs (even if you compare similar towns in terms of income/house prices) – not that one is better than the other – but very different characteristics of the people that choose to live in these areas.
el is only convenient to a small part of wilmette and half of evanston. No idea about OP.
HD, do you see the Working From Home trend as an option for lawyers in the future? Obviously not for meeting and greeting clients but perhaps for the associates who are doing research and other grunt work?
Clio,
I don’t really know anyone in the west suburbs, but I’m sure you’re right. Many of the North Shore suburbs have a very Jewish, urban vibe, like nowhere else in the metro area, city included. The only exceptions are Winnetka/Kenilworth/Lake Forest, which have a very country club, WASP vibe.
For the most part, I like people on the NS. I don’t seem to run into as many snobs as I had thought I would. But it’s definitely there to some extent.
It sure does but when everybody does it. Even here, I get in early usually between 7-7:30 and I work until 5:30 which is a solid 10 hour day (and I usualy end up staying later than that one or two nights a week but rarely if ever leave earlier than 5:30) and everyone once in a while get chided about leaving early. I’m doing 55 hours or more a week but because I want to get home in time to see my child go to bed it’s a bad thing. What a joke. It’s like that throughout most of my profession with the exception of solos or very small firms.
It’s not about who turns on the lights, it’s about who is still around to turn them off…which is a stupid policy because it results in latchkey children, divorces, stress and other intangible harms.
“Bob on November 4th, 2011 at 9:50 am
Any firm with an explicit policy like that is basically actively working to increase their staff churn rate.”
“Remember, where there is a bottom, there will be a top…….”
Here is where Bob reads something that makes him wax reminiscent of his ‘ol friend.
HD:
I have a close relative who tried working in a law firm and dropped out after 2 years due to the very stuff you’re talking about. He had a small child and got tired of not seeing her.
Any place, law firm or other industry, that has an explicit policy forbidding people from leaving before a certain time, is not a place I would ever work at. And I’d never work somewhere where I have to bill hours again. I made that mistake once, and only once. There, it was all about how “billable” you were, not the quality of your work. I happen to be a fast worker, so my billable hours were lower than they wanted. As you can imagine, it was an uncomfortable situation.
I grew up in the western burbs, man do they blow
If I had to choose any burb here in chicago (and death is not an option) I’d go with probably franklin park to the NW, not too shitty, not too snooty, pretty good schools, taxes not too crazy, shortish metra commute
ze – oh God – didn’t mean that in a sexual way, but very very funny….
I dont do face time, “burying hours” or “taking one for the team”. Perhaps thats part of the reason I do what I do now. Its funny when I was a FTE it was implicit that I’d work 50-60 hours/wk even though my paycheck said 40. Nowadays, curiously enough, I rarely am allowed to bill more than 40 but I’d love to work 80..hmm curious 😀
NYC,
You may be on to something there re. my post. Maybe I was looking for validation. Thanks for pointing it out, though you didn’t do it in the nicest way. I’ll try to keep my ego out of my posts.
Dan
Well I should caveat i’ll do all the face time in the world if being remunerated for it.
There’s no explicit policy here which is nice, like I said, I have it better than a lot of other attorneys I know, but I’m thinking I can do better; because at the end of my day I see my kid an hour and a half a weekday and that’s no fun.
I’ve got some tricks up my sleeve….but need more cash…you can never have too much cash…
“I know of a few offices where the firm policy is that no one leaves before 6:30 p.m.”
An actual in-writing policy?
I agree on the the train issue. I can leave on the earlier side w/o issues. If I need to work more, I can work easily from home after kid is asleep (I really don’t understand why lawyers seem so tied to their offices in this day and age.) But the train is still a PITA even if you can take express. If you get off a conference call or you’ve finished something that needs to go out, it’s nice to be able to leave right then and go home. Rather than be tied to a train schedule, even if there is an express every 20-30 min.
Maybe I’d feel differently if I worked close to the station, but I don’t, and that’s an additional 10+ min. Plus the broadband connectivity was crappy whenever I’ve taken metra, so I couldn’t work that efficiently on the train either.
I would rather be a bum than work over 40 hours a week on a regular basis. I sometimes feel jealous of the bums in the summer, I see them lazying about outside, enjoying the weather, when I have to go back and be cooped up in an office.
@Jenny – bums have to share bathrooms
“I sometimes feel jealous of the bums in the summer, I see them lazying about outside, enjoying the weather,”
surrounded by their special aphrodisiacal scent, of burnt sweat mixing with the urine already deeply embedded in their unwashed clothes…as they frolick in their chasing people down the streets yelling at them for money, oh the warmth they must enjoy feeling a poop pass from their rectum and down their own legs… ah those lucky few, that live without boundaries, and can earn the title of ‘homeless’.
I wish they did a reality show where jenny could trade places with a bum for a year (for full appreciation of the weather).
I don’t know if the policy is in writing, but if no one leaves before 6:30 p.m., does it matter? I know that some of the bankruptcy mills (thank goodness my career trajectory never took me in that direction) require attorneys to stay until 8 pm two days a week and require 1/2 days on three out of every four saturdays…yes, three saturdays a month…even the mid sized ins. def firms require 2000 hours a year, which really doesn’t leave much time for vacation. I met a guy the other day doing ins def making crap money and he’s required to bill 45 hours a week. And he says the partners have a talk with you if you try to leave before there are 9 hours billed in the computer that day..which means the partners are staying there even longer..this is a messed up profession. But I hear video game programmers have it worse. They ahve to work 70 or 80 hours a week consistently including weekends and when it’s time to wrap up a project it can be up to 100 hours a week. I know an attorney in big law, who even in her 5th year, was billing 200 hours a month, and she said that there were a couple of months one summer she had to bill 300 hours for three months straight! Think about that, that’s like billing 10 hours a day, sunday – sat, every day for June, July, & August. it takes 12 hours to bill a 10 hour day. so more realistically she was probably in the office from 8 to midnight 4 or 5 times a week and working from home on saturday night, and probably did a half day sunday from home too, for the entire summer. americans work way too much, way too much.
“I would rather be a bum than work over 40 hours a week on a regular basis.”
What is stopping you? Also, hope you are petitioning the census bureau to include your fridge repair, euro vacation, and savings buffer needed to prevent jenny from being too anxious requirements in the alternate poverty metrics.
“I wish they did a reality show where jenny could trade places with a bum for a year (for full appreciation of the weather).”
Ratings would be better, if we get her hooked on smack first.
Meant to include link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/us/experts-say-bleak-account-of-poverty-missed-the-mark.html
As annoying as clio is, he’s got a point here, echoed constantly by my Swiss-born financial adviser.
If you don’t invest when prices are low, you won’t be enjoying much appreciation when they go up.
As always, it’s about timetables and setting realistic budgets based on your cash flow-income/expenses.
“HD and Icarus, while you are correct that many people lost a lot of money in the past 5-10 years in real estate, both of you should be looking forward. In 2017, people will be posting that the SMART ones were the ones who bought in 2011-2012. Remember, where there is a bottom, there will be a top…….”
“I don’t know if the policy is in writing, but if no one leaves before 6:30 p.m., does it matter? I”
It DOES matter…. we have equity partners in my group who definitely don’t pull their weight but still get an equal share. There is no policy in our agreements, so technically, they could work VERY slow and still make the same amount. It is completely unfair – but that is life…. you have to take the good with the bad.
I remember a period of three months where my ex didn’t get a single day off, including weekends, working in big law. The only day he took off for an entire year was when my grandpa died… I felt really bad for him. He used to call me, in tears from his office…. refused to quit and get a normal job though because he was too unhappy to even look and couldn’t imagine making under $150k. I would rather make my pittance than go through that hell.
“he says the partners have a talk with you if you try to leave before there are 9 hours billed in the computer that day..which means the partners are staying there even longer”
So everyone there bills a minimum 9 hours a day? Every day? Seriously? And how do the partners even know you’re leaving for the day?
“I know an attorney in big law, who even in her 5th year, was billing 200 hours a month, and she said that there were a couple of months one summer she had to bill 300 hours for three months straight!”
She had to because she was required to or she was in the middle of busy case(s)? You think this is typical? That biglaw associates typically *bill* 2500-3000 hours a year? Are you maybe exaggerating or picking selective examples, perhaps?
“They ahve to work 70 or 80 hours a week consistently including weekends and when it’s time to wrap up a project it can be up to 100 hours a week.”
This is a big YMMV for developers. For me, I can do as little as 35 hrs some weeks. Last summer I did 100 hrs a week for almost 2 months straight. I worked 7 days a week then. My normal week is around 50 hrs. 8-10 hrs a day mon-fri, and maybe 4-6 hrs on the weekend.
” I felt really bad for him. He used to call me, in tears from his office…”
what grown man CRIES because his job?!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!! Thank God you had enough sense to dump this wimpy whiner.
The biglaw attorney working 300 hours a month for three months straight is a friend I grew up with. We don’t see each other very often but we swap stories.
The attorney who is required to bill 9 hours every day and has a partner checking his hours is the associate attorney on the other side of the case I was in court for yesterday. I demanded $300,000, i’ll probably get $250,000, and my fee (which goes to the firm) is a third. We were chatting about billable hours and that’s what he told me just yesterday. The video game stories are from slashdot comments. I interviewed for a job when I first started my career and the hiring partner was talking about billable hours and how pissed off he got when he would look at hours and mumbled “how you can be here 10 hours and only bill 6?” I didn’t get the job, nor did I want that job, where the partners are reviewing attorneys hours at the end of the day. I know of another attorney at a smaller firm who has time clock! they have to swipe their card to get it and it registers what time they get in and leave. My job is nothing at all like any of these I describe so I suppose I have it better than some, but, I konw I can do better. I would gladly trade more time for less money. I could reduce my income in half and still have a household income of well over $100,000, but I’d have more time to spend doing other activities.
so to review
(HDincome/2 + Mrs HDincome) = well over $100000
Yeah, not crazy over $100k or anything but we are two professionals, that’s not crazy talk. That’s why when I say I crunch the fucking numbers for my budget and for every debtors budget all the numbers just don’t work out very well for $400,000 homes with crazy taxes. I’m a pretty typical dual income proessional household, not on the high side, not on the low side, and it’s tough with daycare, savings, mortgage, student loans, gas, insurance, etc. And if one of us were to lose our jobs, shit, things would get a lot harder. We need to have two people working.
“The biglaw attorney working 300 hours a month for three months straight is a friend I grew up with. We don’t see each other very often but we swap stories.”
I just think people always exaggerate and/or emphasize the extremes when it comes to hours. Unless anonny chimes in differently, I can’t believe the mean, let alone median, biglaw associate is billing in the 2500-3000 range.
“get $250,000, and my fee (which goes to the firm) is a third”
Really time to get that shingle up! Pretty minimal overhead these days in setting up shop, I would think?
“so to review
(HDincome/2 + Mrs HDincome) = well over $100000”
Yeah, I’ve got HD at around $105K and MrsHD around $90K, so that seems about right. Almost middle class in jennyworld.
in my former life as a paralegal for a big law firm, our hour requirement was 1800 and the associates needed 2000. That was mid 90s so i’m sure they’ve increased since then though I do not know by how much.
BOB SLYDELL
Y’see, what we’re trying to do here, we’re just trying to get a feel for how people spend their day. So, if you would, would you just walk
us through a typical day for you?
PETER
Yeah.
BOB SLYDELL
Great.
PETER
Well, I generally come in at least fifteen minutes late. I use the side door, that way Lumbergh can’t see me. Uh, and after that, I just sorta space out for about an hour.
BOB PORTER
Space out?
PETER
Yeah. I just stare at my desk but it looks like I’m working. I do that for probably another hour after lunch too. I’d probably, say, in a given week, I probably do about fifteen minutes of real, actual work.
BOB SLYDELL
Uh, Peter, would you be a good sport and indulge us and tell us a
little more?
PETER
Let me tell you something about TPS reports…’
-Cut to later. Peter is more relaxed.-
PETER
The thing is, Bob, it’s not that I’m lazy. It’s just that I just don’t care.
BOB PORTER
Don’t, don’t care?
PETER
It’s a problem of motivation, all right? Now, if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don’t see another dime. So where’s the motivation? And here’s another thing, Bob. I have eight different bosses right now!
And damn HD, it must suck to be a lawyer, I worked those kinds of hours my first 3 years in this business, but its easy street after that
HD at 110, MrsHD at 60.
so are you waiting for the $400K house to drop to $300 or for your income to increase significantly?
“when I say I crunch the fucking numbers for my budget and for every debtors budget all the numbers just don’t work out very well for $400,000 homes with crazy taxes. “
If all of you lawyers here are so concerned about billing hours, how do you have so much time to be posting on CC? What would partners at your firms say if they knew? Better hope they’re not monitoring your Internet usage (heck, if they have time clocks, you might as well assume they are monitoring your website visits!)
“HD at 110, MrsHD at 60.”
0.5*110+60=115, which I don’t think HD would describe as “well over” 100. I agree though, if I were going to put in a different guesstimate, it would be to push HD to around 110 and MrsHD to 80.
“What would partners at your firms say if they knew?”
IANAL, but don’t you know that the partners only care about billing hours, not actual work done. (Except for the law firm of that $2MM mansion buying, former scotus clerking, attorney referenced the other day.)
I don’t think I could keep track of my time in 6 minute increments like lawyers do… I would be pulling my hair out within an hour.
One of my lawyer friends went “part time” after having her baby and she still worked 40 hours a week. I don’t know what she billed, but she was in the office 40 hours and did a bit of work from home too. She recently went back to full time because $140k a year just wasn’t enough (even with a husband who was also working).
i woulda guessed from his comments.. HD.. About 8 dollars an hour.
I think HD is not being totally honest. If his household income is 150 or near there, there is NO reason he can’t easily afford a 400-500k house. I personally think that maybe he is aiming higher and just waiting for that 850k house to come down to 500-600 at which time he will pounce (ie I don’t think HD is really interested in living in a normal house – he has big eyes)
I agree with clio. And I admit I fit that desc as well.
I agree with James S, Seattle, 9th comment on the New York Times propaganda piece you linked to:
“Nice expansion of detail here, but be warned: when you start counting people who receive assistance as living above the poverty line, you’re opening the door to right-wing and neo-liberal arguments for slashing services, the very services that reduce the overall poverty rate. In other words, they’ll ignore the caveat of government assistance and go right to the pitch: “Less than 5 percent of Americans are living in poverty, so we can go ahead and cut programs.” And they’ll simply gloss over the reason fewer households are below the poverty line. In this article, you can already see the Heritage Foundation, a champion of libertarian anti-poor causes, drooling in anticipation for their next attack on government assistance. Once they’ve made the cuts they want, 10 percent of households WILL be below the poverty line.
“Also, hope you are petitioning the census bureau to include your fridge repair, euro vacation, and savings buffer needed to prevent jenny from being too anxious requirements in the alternate poverty metrics.”
Bob: Fuck you. I dno’t want an $850,000 house. Taxes suck, too much god damn house to clean and I’m not waiting for it to come to $500,000. Clio’s numbers are derived straight from the profligate. My HH income is roughly $150,000, divide up the numbers bw wifey and I how you will, it doesn’t matter, but no way should I be buying a $500,000 house. I’ve said all along i’m more than $100 but less than $200.
The house I want should be $280,000 but today its listed for $350,000 (I’ve had my eye on this house for a year now). (no i’m not linking to the house b/c someone else will bid for it then that’s the cribchatter effect).
The taxes are unfortunately $800 a month. Plus student loans, daycare (for probably two kids), taxes, insurance, savings, food, gas, etc. it all adds up. I”m not poor, but I’m not upper middle class either. I don’t even know if I’m considered middle class because living in some tiny $900 a month apartment I feel like Jenny (are you my neighbor?) I’ve got family members who are legitimately poor (and profligate too!). I’m just trying to make it. and it’s not easy but i have it far easier than many other people I know. I’m not whining or bitching, I’m just constantly looking to improve.
People shouldn’t get married. You can one person in a couple (unmarried) that’s not working, and then they can collect all the WIC, food stamps, housing assistance, free breakfast/lunch for the kids, free medical care, medical care for the kids in IL, etc.. The person working can file a separate tax return, and they can scam the system. Marriage is for white folks.
The cost of the home in of itself isn’t enough information, it’s the monthly nut that counts after your down payment. And that depends on the interest rate you lock into. Are you looking at a 30? A 15? Etc.
“My HH income is roughly $150,000, divide up the numbers bw wifey and I how you will, it doesn’t matter, but no way should I be buying a $500,000 house. I’ve said all along i’m more than $100 but less than $200.”
You are upper middle class, HD. And if it were the 80s you’d be baller status with that HHI. Today the inflation monster and various govt interventions have taken that away. You are the middle 9% like me trying desperately to cling onto your rung on an ever steepening pyramid.
“I can’t believe the mean, let alone median, biglaw associate is billing in the 2500-3000 range.”
You’re correct. The first few years, many barely hit (and many fall short of) the 2,000 mark (many of those folks aren’t around much longer, either because of they’re not working enough, or for other professional or personal reasons).
It can be pretty practice area-specific. For instance, someone in a labor and employment group might barely hit 2,000 for 8 years (of which anywhere from 1 to 200 might be pro bono hours), make partner, then continue to barely hit 2,000 going forward (but 2,000 partner hours are more expensive and harder to bill than a junior or mid-level associate’s hours, plus they’ve got nonbillable firm duties). Yet in the same firm, same office, someone in the M & A or bankruptcy group might hit 2,300 the first few years, then 2,600 for years 4 – 8, then coming down to around 2,100/yr as a partner (again, not counting firm duties, pitching clients, etc.).
Granted, I can’t say what the demands are like at all so-called biglaw or “market” firms. I’m more familiar with the top 20 or so nationally/top 5 or so locally.
$280,000 house, $56,000 down payment.
I figure $1,053 P&I, $800 taxes, $50 Insurance = $1,900 PITI which I want to engineer into $1,600 through a larger down payment and lower home price. Taxes I can’t do anything about, unfortunately. The problem is student loans, daycare, together (at least today) are running $1,000 a month, and we get screwed on taxes b/c we don’t get much if any student loan deduction and we are phased out of most of the child tax credits. Plus gas, food, insurance, savings, 401, college funds, home maintenance (older mid century homes for $280,000 need new windows, often hvac, definitely needs new kitchen, driveways, possibly siding, etc….) so I have to pay for that too. then figure I have to buy a new car in there somewhere in there.
Why is why the easiest thing to control is the housing payment. the LOWER the BETTER>
Your taxes assumption seems way too high and insurance way too low.
I only apply for jobs where the application says ‘drug testing’.
That sounds like something I’d dedicate 40-50 hour weeks to and even bring my work home with me.
“Why is why the easiest thing to control is the housing payment. the LOWER the BETTER”
When your kids get just a little bit older, you’ll have to pay up for the kind of friends/schoolmates you want them to have. If you have a girl, you most definitely don’t want her getting shivved over last pop-tart in 2nd grade.
HD,
Not to get personal, but if things are so tight, why have another kid?
Kids are so damn expensive. And it gets worse as they get older. Now our older one goes to overnight camp for four weeks every summer and bam! – $5,000 out the window right there. Also, their appetites are huge. Our food budget is pretty scary. Not to mention our Lego budget. 🙂
Bob, $8,900 in taxes a year, no fucking joke, is $741.00 a month, and that’s just LAST year’s taxes. And the taxes have been appealed every three years for the last decade without any reduction (you can check appeal history on the assessor’s website).
Insurance I said $50 a month because last time I said $100 a month and people like anon flipped out and screamed $1,200 a year is way way way to high.
must be in a suburb because no 350k house that i’ve seen on the NW side has almost 9k a year in taxes!
“which I want to engineer into $1,600 through a larger down payment and lower home price.”
I’d like to recommend a lower down payment, and use the difference to pay off student loan.
btw, this is the version of HD I prefer the most.
It is not only lawyers who work a lot. Most doctors, consultants, researchers, private business owners do the same. There is no free lunch in life.
Chuk: It’s a wash actually to have a lower down payment or to pay off the student loan. The taxes and interest i can deduct, but, the student loans are 1.5% or more lower interest rate. So it’s the same. The concern for me is cash flow. If I or my spouse were to lose a job it would take a while to find another job paying a similar wage and I don’t want to blow through a ton of savings paying the mortgage. $1,500 or $1,600 vs. $2000 or more is $5,000 a year which when you’re conserving cash due to job loss is a lot of money. I would just start up a firm or work on my own, I doubt I would want to work for someone else again, but it would take a while to establish a law firm and get the income back up to where it needs to be. I want to be able to make the mortgage payment out of one income if need be.
I know, that’s how it is in america. We work more than almost any other country on the face of the earth. I don’t necessarily know if this is a good thing. Sure money is great but working 60 hours a week means sacrifice and often the trade offs aren’t worth it. No one ever dies and says “Wow, I wish I spent more time at the office.” They say, like steve jobs, “I wanted my kids to know me”.
“miumiu on November 4th, 2011 at 1:50 pm
It is not only lawyers who work a lot. Most doctors, consultants, researchers, private business owners do the same. There is no free lunch in life.”
I agree, miumiu, no free lunch. But I’m pretty happy with my job. Easy commute, 8:30 to 5:30 hours, little need to ever work at night or on weekends, all holidays observed, no hourly billing, no clients, upper middle class pay and an annual bonus which takes my total to not much below HD’s without all the lawyer crap he has to put up with. That said, the stress level can be intense, but at times, like right now (knock on wood), I have some quiet hours and can relax quite a bit. I aim to leave right at 5 tonight.
“I don’t even know if I’m considered middle class because living in some tiny $900 a month apartment I feel like Jenny (are you my neighbor?)”
Think about any reasonable defn of middle class by percentile of income, and you are in it. Frankly, there’s little doubt you’re upper middle class.
“I figure $1,053 P&I, $800 taxes, $50 Insurance = $1,900 PITI…student loans, daycare, together (at least today) are running $1,000 a month…plus gas, food, insurance, savings, 401, college funds, home maintenance…then figure I have to buy a new car in there somewhere in there.”
Are you claiming that after you have figured all these things in, you cannot “afford” the house at the current price?
“I’m more familiar with the top 20 or so nationally/top 5 or so locally.”
Who are top 5 Chicago firms (by which I’d assume you mean a firm where Chicago is the a/the main office or an otherwise substantial enough Chicago presence to count, or whatev)? Kirkland, Sidley, Winston, Mayer? Who else is in running?
I don’t think too many Chicago homes that sell for $300K have $9K in RE taxes.
” The concern for me is cash flow. If I or my spouse were to lose a job it would take a while to find another job paying a similar wage and I don’t want to blow through a ton of savings paying the mortgage.”
Yes, but look at it this way:
$280,000 house, $56,000 down payment.
Let’s say you put down 30% instead (84k). The difference in your mortgage payment will only be around $130 a month on a 30 year (1069.41 vs 935.73). Not sure that will help much in a case of job loss. On the other hand, if you kept that additional 28k in cash, you would be able to use it to make almost 28 mortgage payments while you looked for work. Odds are, your job loss would be temporary. By putting a larger down payment down, you are lowering your payment for 30 years. That’s probably not necessary.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Park-Ridge/1209-Granville-Ave-60068/home/13564521
Here’s one (along the ‘granville runway to be completed in 2020) that has $7,700 in taxes after deducting the homeowners and senior exemption. So it’s pretty darn close to $9,000 give or take a lil’
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Park-Ridge/1525-W-Talcott-Rd-60068/home/13640108
$8,600 for a house that sold for $305,000
Welcome to park ridge. THe high taxes keep away the hoi pollei.
“I don’t want to blow through a ton of savings paying the mortgage”
But you’d have more savings to “blow through” if you didn’t use as much of it toward the downpayment. Not sure it matters much either way if you have enough liquidity (which was not your point of emphasis).
DZ – Jenner and Block, Baker Daniels… can’t think of any others you didn’t already mention.
Pretty much, DZ. I’d say throw Jenner in there too, along with Skadden (which has a fairly large Chi office, unlike some other major non-Chi-based firms with offices here). There’s a handful of prestigious, single office firms (populated largely by would-have-been or former attorneys from the firms already mentioned) that come to mind as well, in terms of the type of work and (associate) pay ranges. I don’t know enough about the the DLA-SNR-Katten-etc. firms to opine one way or another.
Chuk: the difference of $130 is roughly made up with the need to pay PMI so its kind of a wash. You’re right though, $28,000 would go a long way if I were unemployed.
However, there’s plan B. I can save in my household $40,000 a year pretty easily (well not easily but pretty reliably) so I’m probably going to stick it in the apt for another year or two and save up some serious cash, buy a house, then hang my own shingle. i’ll never get a mortgage with 0-2 years of self-employment income.
THe thing I keep sayign is that I need two incomes. I can’t have a $2,000 mortgage payment on one of my family incomes. I just can’t do it. The numbers don’t work; well they might work but it would be very very tight. too close for comfort. That’s why I want the payment low. But the problem is that quite frankly in the areas i want to live teh $2,000 figure is the threshhold for families, it’s just a matter of what $2,000 a month buys keeps getting better. So if i can get that to $1,600 or $1,800 I’ll psychologically feel beter.
clio – why am I typing so much today? well let’s say last week I settled a case (received the check in the mail this afternoon) that is equal to roughly 1/7th of my entire years billings. For one day. Quick settlement on a great liability case.
So I’ve taken it easy the last few days around here. and i’m feeling a little under the weather, I don’t have the stamina to do a lot of crazy work today. I can’t concentrate on discvery although I did propound some.
If I was married, I like the idea of saving the entirety of one spouse’s salary, while living off the other. My friends parents did this and it ended up being easy for them to weather occasional lay offs and they should be able to retire in a few years. They stayed in their “starter house” and don’t have a mortgage anymore.
americans really do have a problem detaching their identities from their work. It is very annoying.
“Baker Daniels”
Really? I’ve never heard of them.
“why am I typing so much today? well let’s say last week I settled a case (received the check in the mail this afternoon) that is equal to roughly 1/7th of my entire years billings. For one day. Quick settlement on a great liability case.”
WTF are you doing in the office on a Friday afternoon?
You have to find a man to marry you, Jenny. I like your quirky personality but I’m already married 😉
“jenny on November 4th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
If I was married, I like the idea of saving the entirety of one spouse’s salary, while living off the other. My friends parents did this and it ended up being easy for them to weather occasional lay offs and they should be able to retire in a few years. They stayed in their “starter house” and don’t have a mortgage anymore.”
“Chuk: the difference of $130 is roughly made up with the need to pay PMI so its kind of a wash. You’re right though, $28,000 would go a long way if I were unemployed.”
I assumed you would put down at least 20%. I was referring to putting down MORE than 20%.
“I can’t have a $2,000 mortgage payment on one of my family incomes. I just can’t do it.”
Right. At least not forever. If you are cash flow negative while looking for 6 months for a job, that is OK (if you didn’t put the extra into the house).
Very few upwardly mobile professions populated by Type A personalities require only 40 hour weeks. 60+ hours was the norm when I was a management consultant. I did a few weeks where I pushed 90+ hours. I don’t have it in me to work like that anymore, but I still occassionally stay till midnight and work through weekends when we get a crush of refi applications.
@HD, you don’t have to pay PMI with less than 20% down. Upfront MI is also getting very cheap these days on conventional loans for highly qualified borrowers. Having cash on hand is a lot safer than making larger down payments.
“If I was married, I like the idea of saving the entirety of one spouse’s salary, while living off the other.”
Wouldn’t you like the idea of staying at home more? Prob should get back with the biglaw boyfriend, unless he’s at Baker Daniels, which, as I said, I’ve never even heard of.
My name is not on the door, or the above the line on the letterhead, so to speak. Not yet at least, but there’s all this political shit (and I literally mean politics) and some health related shit with some of the people who make these decisions here, and quite frankly, they make a lot of sausage where I make and if that sort of stuff makes me queasy, so I’m kind of just floundering, waiting to make my move. whatever that is. Its the ying and the yang, the taoist principles that I follow, it’ll all work out in the end, but I simply have to be prepared when the opporunity arises, and it will, sooner or later. The first stage of my career is to learn all I can about the practice and business of law, and build up a little savings (or pay off debt) and stage two will be where I jump off onto bigger or better thigns.
“DZ on November 4th, 2011 at 2:43 pm
“Baker Daniels”
Really? I’ve never heard of them.
“why am I typing so much today? well let’s say last week I settled a case (received the check in the mail this afternoon) that is equal to roughly 1/7th of my entire years billings. For one day. Quick settlement on a great liability case.”
WTF are you doing in the office on a Friday afternoon?”
“Here’s one (along the ‘granville runway to be completed in 2020) that has $7,700 in taxes after deducting the homeowners and senior exemption. So it’s pretty darn close to $9,000 give or take a lil’”
Sold for $280,000. Assessed for $371,140. Easy appeal win. It’s in Leyden Twp, effective tax rate here of 2.32% of MV w/o exemptions.
“$8,600 for a house that sold for $305,000”
The house is assessed at $457,420. Another easy appeal. It’s in Maine Twp, effective tax rate here of 2.30% of MV w/o exemptions.
I don’t consider myself the tyoical american but ze is right. Lately what REALLY pisses me off are people who walk fast and noisely around the office as if they need to get to their battle station to man the howitzer in the tet offensive. These people go through life with high blood pressure and no fucking clue. I just want to grab them, shake them and yell at them that I’m fairly certain whatever task or meeting they always rush to & fro for really isn’t as important as they think it is. In fact its quite insignificant like everything else in their inconsequential lives.
G: How much savings per house after the reassessment?
I had some opposing counsel asshole call my boss today to complain about me. I’m defending a case and I won’t settle for what he wants so he calls the office and asks for the partner to whom I answer and says he won’t deal with me anymore, he wants another attorney signed to the case.
I swear to god, this guy actually thought that strategy would work. Complain to the partner about one of the firm’s best attorneys and then ask that the case be reassigned so that he can work with someone else who will settle for a larger amount.
This is the kind of shit I deal with on a daily fucking basis in this profession. Opposing counsel will stab you in the back, make you look bad to the people who sign your paycheck, for a buck. No ethics, no rules, playing dirty. My boss didn’t care, it’s just par for the course in this business. NO professionality here, the ISBA talks about the nonsense other lawyers will do.
It’s the effective tax rate times the market value difference.
“Opposing counsel will stab you in the back”
You’re surprised that opposing counsel is working in opposition to you?
Twenty one hundred a year on the granville house? not bad.
HD after that stunt try to lower your settlement offer by at least 10k.
But they could just raise the tax rate on the lower AV. Probably will happen.
hd: I’m surprised there’s not more “going postal” or sinister revenge blowouts between lawyers, since they argue all day for a living and they’re all type A. I guess the fear of getting disbarred keeps them in check?
” I just want to grab them, shake them and yell at them that I’m fairly certain whatever task or meeting they always rush to & fro for really isn’t as important as they think it is. ”
One day I asked myself, what was I doing 2 years ago, that had to be done immediately or the world would end. Then I laughed and realized nothing really matters. I feel bad for the people who sit there bragging about how they have several years of vacation days saved up because they haven’t taken a vacation in 3 years.
I think HD is possibly one of the more intelligent people I’ve run into as far as this goes- people that don’t own generally don’t understand how Chicago property taxes work. It has nothing to do with the alleged value of your house, it’s the total levy the City draws and then how your house is valued relative to other homes.
And over time, it most certainly is the wild card – you can plan for just about everything else, but if 4 assessment cycles from now your home gets hit with a 40% tax increase and you weren’t planning for that, better have a back up plan.
That’s why I suggest that people seriously interested in the health of Chicago consider investigating and (hopefully) supporting a model more like NYC’s, where they have a city income tax which primarily funds schools, so property taxes are very low and don’t accelerate out of nowhere because say, one day CPS realizes they need a 1 billion cash injection for their pension plan shortfall.
Property taxes are what drove my mom out of her two-flat in Lake View after 35 years – not gangs, urinating Cubs fans or lousy street parking. Property taxes.
In ten years ours have gone from $3K to $7K. No problem now while we’re both working, but not so good in terms of how that looks after retirement, even with senior breaks and all that.
“I don’t think too many Chicago homes that sell for $300K have $9K in RE taxes.”
“But they could just raise the tax rate on the lower AV. Probably will happen.”
Only if they lowered everyone’s AV a similar % or raised the levy substantially. Here’s the historical effective rate for that Leyden Twp tax code:
2006 2.27
2007 1.88
2008 1.98
2009 2.16
2010 2.32
oh, and I should have added that this is where Chicagoans get *seriously* screwed with a Corruption Tax.
when some mega-building like the John Hancock gets a multi-million dollar property tax break on appeal (perhaps they donate to a certain Mr. Berrios’ campaign coffers), think about how many single family homes, condos, etc. will end up making up the difference once all the fuzzy math comes into play using the tax equalizer and all that.
“Opposing counsel will stab you in the back, make you look bad to the people who sign your paycheck, for a buck. No ethics, no rules, playing dirty.”
uhhhh – you ARE a lawyer – what did you expect? Maybe you should try a new career (not being sarcastic – but mental/emotional health is more important).
worth reading (all of his articles are):
http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/how-property-taxes-and-tifs-work/Content?oid=4883980
The bankruptcy bar tends to be far more professional absent a couple of dickheads, but that’s par for the course in any profession. The tort bar is filled with insane narcissitcs.
“uhhhh – you ARE a lawyer – what did you expect? Maybe you should try a new career (not being sarcastic – but mental/emotional health is more important).”
Jenny,
I agree with HD. You seem like a good catch. If I weren’t married, I might be asking you out for coffee!
In ten years, our City taxes went from 6000 to 7700.
which J(j)enny are we talking about, capital J Jenny, or the jenny that hates the Christianity?
Wow, I feel sorry for the other threads/houses that are being ignored because we’re all posting here…NOT.
I don’t punch a clock and my time tracking is more for project planning than income. I do have some WFH options which i plan to utilize once the weather starts getting bad. My commute to work isn’t bad, coming home can be a nightmare at the 90 toll booth.
HD, I’d love to follow your plan and purchase a home under those conditions (low monthly payment, plenty of savings in the bank) but if there’s a chance to make a move sooner, I might take it as I’ve got half a decade on you and life is too short to put dreams on hold.
speaking of shorts, is it too cold to go running in shorts today?
It’s nice outside. Just depends on what you consider cold.
“Property taxes are what drove my mom out of her two-flat in Lake View after 35 years”
“In ten years ours have gone from $3K to $7K.”
This was due to prior underassessment of residential properties, rapid price appreciation, and increasing the levy. Here’s the historical effective rates for most of Chicago as a % of MV w/o exemptions:
2000 1.99
2001 1.95
2002 1.98
2003 1.74
2004 1.78
2005 1.72
2006 1.51
2007 1.49
2008 1.43
2009 1.56
2010 1.63
“when some mega-building like the John Hancock gets a multi-million dollar property tax break on appeal”
It seems irrational to believe that they do not make mistakes on big properties when houses, which are much more easily valued, are so often incorrect.
The Jenny who says she doesn’t like to eat and thinks $60K a year salary makes her impoverished. And she’s jealous of bums. I think she’s totally wrong about both food and her salary, but I like her anyway!
G: what do you mean by increasing the levy, if it decreased from 1.99 to 1.63?
where does the equalizer fit in?
The effective rate I presented is a % of MV. The calculation is:
Assessment level x equalization factor x tax rate = effective rate
What that decrease in effective rate meant is that they increased the levy (the total amount of the budget of the taxing bodies) at a slower pace than the total market value of all real estate was increasing.
so, if the market value of real estate is decreasing, they will increase the effective rate to at least keep the levy stable, if not increase it. So, we can expect effective rates to increase, right? This means those who think their AV declines will give them a lower tax bill, won’t ever see it.
DZ:
“Who are top 5 Chicago firms (by which I’d assume you mean a firm where Chicago is the a/the main office or an otherwise substantial enough Chicago presence to count, or whatev)? Kirkland, Sidley, Winston, Mayer? Who else is in running?”
Without looking, I would say those 4, Jenner, and McDermott.
I assume that Jenny meant Baker & McKenzie, but I would not put them there. Kind of a mcfirm.
btw HD, with all the foreclosures around here, you should look for a fannie owned REO. You can buy it with 3% down and won’t pay any PMI. Obviously that will give you a higher monthly payment (which I think is a GOOD thing vs higher down payment especially at todays rates), you will have your other 17% in savings in the event of job loss, etc. And if things really go to shit, you can walk away and only lose 3%…
“so, if the market value of real estate is decreasing, they will increase the effective rate to at least keep the levy stable, if not increase it.”
Yes.
“So, we can expect effective rates to increase, right?”
Yes.
“This means those who think their AV declines will give them a lower tax bill, won’t ever see it.”
Yes, if it is an across the board reduction and there is no new development/rehabs to add to the total AV. HD’s examples would certainly require reductions far in excess of any across the board reduction, thus resulting in a lower tax bill.
C’mon chuk, you know that HD is waiting for at least the 10-15% decline that even you still see coming. It’s not like he is currently living in his rental equivalent. Not to mention that rates are going lower.
“C’mon chuk, you know that HD is waiting for at least the 10-15% decline that even you still see coming”
I didn’t mean now. I just meant whenever he buys.
Also today’s REO is most likely already 10-15% below “market prices”. So if he waits for the 10-15% decline and buys a traditional owner occupied sale, it may up end being the same as today’s REO price (and yes, even better to buy tomorrows REO lower)
Remove the residency requirement and I would be the entire farm that a 1,018 foot cape cod, with 2 bedrooms in the attic, and a finished basement family room, just a mile or two west of the 2nd busiest airport in the world not sell for anywhere near $365,000. The proof is in the pudding because head a few blocks directly north into park ridge and you can buy a cape cod twice the size for half the price per sq ft. The area also has great schools and great amenities and is in the flight path of the air port.
NO YOU CAN’T show me a comp active listing 2x the size in Park Ridge in a decent location
Does the residency requirement make these neighborhoods what they are – absolutely.
they are great neighborhoods because of it
danny (lower case D) on November 3rd, 2011 at 5:23 pm
If Rahm were smart, his big concession to teachers, cops, and firemen (in exchange for the longer school hours, etc.) would be to end the city residency requirements.
That would be a mild sweetener to help make wage concessions more tolerable.
The requirements have no purpose, except to keep workers in line politically with the ward organizations.
That ain’t happening. Take a look at Detroit no residency requirement and it’s a shithole. The city workers add stability to the neighborhoods. It’s really good for Chicago
Uh lunker look above. Take your sf disagreement up with the assessor. It is a great neighborhood but totally pricy forwhat you actually get. That cape cod is fugly and its over 300 psf of real living, non attic or basement living space.
HD there are alot of crappy sub locations in Park Ridge. I don’t see anything decent for $365 pop up in PR very often that is turn key. Most need 100k of work or in a less desirable pocket.
PR is very over rated besides schools. The park district sucks, no restaurants, no bars, tons of planes, lack of parks. But schools are very good and location is good into the city and major highways. Taxes are obscene like Oak Park
bring back nileschatter.com!!
“Does the residency requirement make these neighborhoods what they are – absolutely.
they are great neighborhoods because of it.”
Then what’s the harm in dropping it? Certainly people wouldn’t choose to leave a great hood for lesser burbs, right?
G on November 5th, 2011 at 6:58 am
“Does the residency requirement make these neighborhoods what they are – absolutely.
they are great neighborhoods because of it.”
Then what’s the harm in dropping it? Certainly people wouldn’t choose to leave a great hood for lesser burbs, right?
Kind of the theory people will care more about the city they work in if they live there. Solid income for the most part is being paid to city workers. Mt Greenwood, Garfield Ridge are in the same boat as Oriole Park
Oriole Park would be hurt if the residency rule was gone
“Solid income for the most part is being paid to city workers.”
Solid income paid off an ever declining and increasingly overburdened tax base.
“Oriole Park would be hurt if the residency rule was gone”
This is American. Requiring people to live in a particular place harkens back to the segregation era and is decidedly un-American. Fuck you.
“The city workers add stability to the neighborhoods. It’s really good for Chicago”
Just like Russian forced laborers added stability to the gulags, too. There’s no point in talking about America to outcome-oriented statists such as yourself. You’d change this place into an authoritarian regime if given the chance. I’ll say it again: fuck you.
“You’d change this place into an authoritarian regime if given the chance. I’ll say it again: fuck you.”
Wow, drinking whiskey before noon again bob?
Lunker knows those neighborhoods can’t stand on their own two feet without a top-down imposed residency requirement. Lets end the residency requirement and see what happens.
actually bob, its so that if needed in an emergency, your firefighter doesn’t have to commute from oswego to get to the fire station downtown, they want the workers close to where they work in case of emergency
Also Bob, what about speed limits? Are they also turning the country to a gulag?
You guys have been too indoctrinated by McCarthyism.
well red light cameras are pretty damn communist
There was something to it back in the day when staff might have been tight and transportation took longer, but with today’s advances in techology, I’m sure someone living in Niles or Evanston could make it to the downtown fire station if needed.
“actually bob, its so that if needed in an emergency, your firefighter doesn’t have to commute from oswego to get to the fire station downtown, they want the workers close to where they work in case of emergency”
@Sonies, you actually bring up a good point. Its this all or nothing approach that is annoying. Yeah oswego is too far out, but couldn’t they adjust the residency to something less strict, like 25 mile radius?
Sonies: then a residency requirement requiring them to live within a certain distance of their station would solve that problem. But we all know it has nothing to do with quicker response times and everything to do with propping up certain neighborhoods. It’s a band aid over the bullet wound of Chicago not being friendly to middle class family formation. And attempting to solve the underlying issues people like Lunker take the easy way out and support a decidedly un-American rule.
Do you not think a firefighter living in Evanston would be able to respond quicker to a fire in Rogers Park than a firefighter living in Beverly?
Removing the residency requirement would result in a substantial increase in the quality of life for city workers. Since we are asking them to take a big bite of the shit sandwich regarding wages and pension, why not offer them a giant incentive that has no budgetary cost at all.
There is no reason for the residency requirement other than political CONTROL. Those days in Chicago are over. Ward politics is just inefficient bullshit. Rahm is decoupling streets and san service from Ward control. Aldermen and ward committeemen should be stripped of their historic boodle sources.
Real simple choice – you wanna be a city employee you need to live in the city
It’s the best decision out there to build solid neighborhoods
No its really not Lunker. Having quality schools, lower taxes and an efficient, responsive, accountable government is.
yeah bob because people that live in the city should be paying the pensions and benefits of someone who wants to live in naperville… that totally makes sense… NOT
you have a higher paying union city job, you deal with the higher city taxes and other nonsense involved with living in this town, its that simple. No free lunch!
plus this is something that will never happen so no point in really talking about it, as it would decimate many middle class neighborhoods and the outrage would be huge
There would be no outrage if Rahm removed the residency requirement. No one would pick up and move the next day or anything, but over time, a large portion of the next generation of workers will choose to live in Niles rather than Oriole Park. ANd the next generation of city workers will be even smaller than the current given the budgetary situation. It would be a slow moving situation.
C’mon, comparing the city’s residency requirement to the Soviet Gulag is way over the top.
If you eliminated the residency requirement, wouldn’t you force the price of this hose down to parity with the identical ones like it in the burbs? Wouldn’t that hose the city workers, not help them?
I think the best argument for the requirement is that since the wages and benefits of the city employees are being paid by city residents, the spending power and consumption from those benefits should be encouraged to be directed within the city limits.
“I think the best argument for the requirement is that since the wages and benefits of the city employees are being paid by city residents, the spending power and consumption from those benefits should be encouraged to be directed within the city limits.”
Except that they all travel to Oak Lawn & Niles to Shop at Wal-Mart et al. The city areas are on the fringes of the city (Hedgewish shops in IN, Beverly/Mt. Greenwood in Oak Lawn and Edison Park, Wildwood Edgebrook in Niles). So the money isn’t really staying in the city they’re hopping in their cars and driving to the first suburb outside of the city. none of those city neighborhoods are walkable.
Not entirely a true statement HD. Edison Park is very walkable. You have restaurants, bars, grocery store, metra, parks, park ridge downtown all walkable.
Beverly, Old Norwood, Edgebrook, not so much. Never been to Hedgewich.
Who wants to be able to walk to a Walmart anyway?
Edison park has a little downtown. It’s walkable in that sense but it’s still a pretty car centric area other than the metra. Does anyone up there take the bus? El is far away.
it’s spelled Hegewisch, fartknockers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegewisch,_Chicago
oh, and they go to Cal-city to shop. not indy, generally. at least that was the case 10yrs ago.
“Who wants to be able to walk to a Walmart anyway?”
LOL they’re building a Target at Diivsion & Halsted. People will be able to walk there. Maybe not the best place to walk to but it used to be high-rise Cabrini, so an improvement.
“LOL they’re building a Target at Diivsion & Halsted.”
Division and Halsted? Really? They is one under construction in the west loop right now. Near Sangamon and Jackson. The reason people care if one comes into the neighborhood is mainly for the supermarket (in my opinion.)
homedelete on November 6th, 2011 at 9:46 pm
Edison park has a little downtown. It’s walkable in that sense but it’s still a pretty car centric area other than the metra. Does anyone up there take the bus? El is far away.
Your more walkable in EP than most neighborhoods. And also walkable to Park Ridge which I know has starbucks, chase, trader joes etc. Can you walk to Target or Walmart – No. Most places you can’t walk to them
I think Blueline is too far to walk. But I’m sure there’s a bus
It appears to be a good hood in terms of walkability