Own Your Own 3-Unit Greystone in the East Village: 914 N. Winchester
You could live in one and rent out the other two units in this magestic greystone 3-flat at 914 N. Winchester in the East Village (or is this the Ukranian Village???)
Many of the original wood work features are still intact including the wood archways in between the living and dining rooms and the decorative fireplaces.
The kitchens and baths have been updated.
The units have separate central air and all three kitchens have dishwashers. The tenants pay their own separate gas, electric and heat.
All three units are currently rented:
- Unit #1: 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, rented for $1150 – including a parking space
- Unit #2: 3 bedrooms, 1 bath, rented for $1150 – including a parking space
- Unit #3: 2 bedrooms, 1 bath, rented for $1200
Ivona Kutermankiewicz at Koenig & Strey has the listing. See more pictures here.
914 N. Winchester: 7 bedrooms, 3 baths, 2 car garage
- I couldn’t find an original sales price- but sometime in 1987
- Currently listed for $679,900
- Rental income of $42,000
- Electric: $3600
- Insurance: $2800
- Maintenance: $2000
- Water: $600
- Full basement
Like most rental properties for sale in Chicago, this one just doesn’t provide a very good return.
Ivona Kutdapricedown to 550k to make this work
do you see that original wood work archway in the first picture on cc?
to me that is worth the 679k price.
what do you think this would cost to turn it into a SFH with a in-law/au-pair?
$679k? Hahahaa fail.
To answer the question “or is this the Ukranian Village???”. This is East Village as it is on the East side of Damen, which I think is the dividing line between the two.
that woodwork is so tacky, i don’t care how old it is, not a good look then, not a good look now.
Well since this person bought before 1987, the likelyhood of this person being flexible on the price is high… unless the idiot heloc’d the place to the gills
I’m with Groove on this one (shocking as it may be), this would be a cool single family home. As a 3-flat it’s kinda yuck.
I think this would make a great single family with first floor apartment. Would obviously need to put some work into the place, but location is good and price isn’t ridiculous.
“that woodwork is so tacky, i don’t care how old it is, not a good look then, not a good look now”
PaulJ,
I have over 100,000 EXACTLY the sames 2/2 condos i can sell you. they have SS app and granite counters.
the best part i will sell you one of thses wonderful exactly the same 2/2 for less than this grey stone for the easy payment price off 550k and will even drop parking for you to 25k.
Asking price is fail, but Sonies, I take back my earlier comment, you’re right again, there is plenty of room to move on price, and the owner did not heloc this place to the hilt. It appears the mortgage is only $170k. Actually, I start to like this place the more I think about it. Owners buys a rental 22 years ago, rents all three units, building clearly cash flows, small mortgage (Although it should have been paid off years ago), has cash flow of $42k per year (in theory) and I bet after taxes, maintenance, the owner clears $15k or $20k a year (that’s just my guesstimate); now years later the owner can sell for cash and take the appreciation. This is what RE investing is about. These people who buy single unit condos to rent with no cash flow and assessments counting on nothing more than future appreciation are flipper fools. The problem is that the boom made properties like these difficult to purchase at a price that can cash flow. Everybody including this owner is asking a ridiculous price that rents don’t even cover.
I just noticed the “Walk to… and the El” in the listing.
Well I guess you could. You could also walk to Canada or Mexico.
It’s a 15-20 min walk. Not really close but doable. Might be nice in pleasant weather if your not in a hurry but really sucks when it gets cold, windy, rainy, and your rushing to work.
I would just take #66 to the Blue Line.
Also, doesn’t UK Village border Damen to Western/Division to Chicago? I’ve seen ads claiming UK Village West of Western.
Way overpriced, 42,000 revenue with 40% expense ratio is 25,200 net income. Apply 6.5% cap rate and get 388k. No deal!
I’d love to turn the top two floors into a tastefully rehabbed duplex and keep the lower floor as a rental.
Lots of curb appeal on this building for me, except for the concrete front stair railing.
22 years ago this was a seriously garbage hood though, so there was quite a bit of risk involved, but I’m sure it was purchased and cashflowed right away. My guess is this place sells at 500-550k because it ain’t selling if it ain’t cashflowing.
I like it! except the price maybe, but its a nice looking place. what would it have gone for 2-3 years ago i wonder
*****This is what RE investing is about.****
Everything said about is absolutely right.
The big however, is that in pre-1987 this neighborhood was a prime example of 1960’s white flight.
Unfortunately, I don’t for see Washington Park, Austin, etc. transform over the next 20 years as Ukran Vill/Wicker Park, etc.
I think it’s a bit on the big side for a SFH conversion, unless you put a 1 bed rental in the basement. I lived near here years ago and walking to the el is a Siberian death march in the winter.
bradford – those are not concrete railings, they are gian solid pieces of limestone – I’d bet on it.
I love this place. The exterior is beautiful and the interiors are pretty nice considering the building’s age.
But in order for it to sell to me, I would want at least 7-10% net profit. Plus, Sabrina, those numbers for the rents on each unit seem odd (though I’m sure you are just quoting the listing).
Unit #3 (top floor presumably) rents for $50 more than the other 2-1 without a parking space? No way would I spend more for my place when my downstairs neighbor has to climb 200% less stairs than me and gets a garage parking space.
“I think it’s a bit on the big side for a SFH conversion, unless you put a 1 bed rental in the basement. I lived near here years ago and walking to the el is a Siberian death march in the winter.”
I always thought the bigger the house the better – so I don’t quite understand the point about it being on the “big side” for that… Just turn the third floor into a giant master bed/bath suite with some bedrooms on the second floor, open living on the first floor and a nice finished rec room… My guess is that this all could be done for something over a million — someone who does this is probably not someone dependent on the el. Solves that problem.
Allow me to add…
Maybe it is opposite day since Peg Bundy is complaining that the place may be too big and ME is favoring the lower floors over living on the top floor with nobody above you.
Beautiful building! They don’t build them like this anymore, that’s for sure.
Notice how they don’t show any pictures of the bedrooms? That’s because they are usually tiny in buildings like these.
Rents seem a little low, esp because the tenants with parking spaces pay less than those without. It is ambiguous as to whether the tenants pay heat or not. On Redfin it says that tenants pay heat, but it also says radiator AND GFA heating, which is odd. Many of you non-landlords don’t really understand how expensive it is to provide tenants with heat.
Sabrina, looks like you added a zero to the electric costs and it looks like the listing left out the gas bill, which the landlord would have to pay unless each unit also has its own water heater.
No, Jon – its not that I prefer the lower floors, but that I am not going to pay more for no parking and hiking up two long flights of stairs.
“but it also says radiator AND GFA heating, which is odd.”
I see vents in the ceilings but no radiators anywhere in the pics. I hate vents in the ceiling. I know heat rises anyway but I’d rather they be on the floor. They just seem to work better that way. Maybe they didn’t want to punch holes in the hardwood floors?
You see, all thing all you non-landlords are coming to understand is that rental prices aren’t like shopping at Target. Rent is negotiable. You price what you think the market is and then you negotiate based upon what you think the tenants can pay. I showed up to my landlord and said, (not verbatim but in spirit) “you’re going to have two lawyers with perfect credit paying your rent every month. I need a discount.” And I got it. My rent is only slightly more than one bedrooms even though it’s got 2. That’s probably the case. The lower floor unit may have been vacant for a month or two and holding out for an extra $50 or $100 buck a month because that’s what you got on the top floor is just foolish, it’s about cash flowing every month, not holding out for top rental dollar. Sometime it’s better to have a good stable tenant who pays less than to have a riskier tenant who is willing to pay slightly more.
Its a victorian, so the rooms are tiny, tiny tiny. I have to wonder if its getting that much rent down there
Lots of people prefer being on the top floor so they don’t have people above them. But that changes over time – in the past the second floor was (historically anyway in walk ups) the most desirable – above the street, but not higher due to stair climbing. When the six-flat I grew up in was converted the second floor sold for more, whereas now the third floor units are worth more.
“you’re going to have two lawyers with perfect credit paying your rent every month. I need a discount.” And I got it.
Kind of the reverse of the mid 90’s when my girlfriend waited for everybody to leave a well attended apt showing so she could offer the guy 50 bucks more a month than he was asking. cutthroat getting a decent rental back then.
PS look at photo #7, there’s a radiator there. They probably left the boiler for one unit and ripped them out of the rest. Hot water is easier to split among tenants than steam, usually just add an extra set of pipes and a second boiler on the tenants dime and viola, tenant pays heat.
Sheridan B adding two or three extra sets of pipes is hard and expensive unless you are already gutting the kitchens and baths.
That’s the good thing about the housing boom and then the recession: they built too many housing units for the number of households, and new households aren’t forming because college aged kids can’t find jobs, and the foreclosures are causing others to double up.
Lots of rentals out there. The deals right now are in rents. $1,150 for a 2/1 with parking is a pretty good deal especially in the condition these units seem to be. There’s even a backyard to grill.
It’s become even harder to find properties that cash flow because so there are so investors buying for rentals.
Most people that keep radiant heat in their home but add C/A, run the Central Air vents through the attic or above crawl space.
and from the pictures it looks like only one floor has vents from the ceiling?
The comment about this place being too big wasn’t spurious – I’m actually looking at doing a SFH conversion at the moment. We’re looking at 2 flats with 2000+ SF above grade living space. We ruled out 3 flats because the conversion costs become larger – you need zoned HVAC, another floor to wire/plumb/move walls around etc. Plus, I’ve lived in a 3200 sq ft house. A decent chunk of that was home office space, but still, it’s extra house to heat/air condition, clean/get cleaned, maintain. And another set of stairs to negotiate everyday. So why pay extra for space I don’t need?
Also, this isn’t in the “super rich” price range. People paying around a million for a house in Chicago still use the el at least some of the time.
“It’s become even harder to find properties that cash flow because so there are so investors buying for rentals.”
Homedelete, What do you mean by this?
Peg,
What hoods have you been looking in?
Peg – I see your point, but for someone looking to do a smaller conversion – just get a 2-flat. This – in my opinion – would be a perfect conversion to put kids/guest rooms on one floor and use the other for a master suite. As far as the el goes, I think I’ve argued this point enough on here. Soon it will be the case that it’s cheaper to park than it is to take the el — let’s revisit it then. In the meantime, many people like myself could care less how far they live from public transportation.
Rents are dropping at the same time that a flood of newly purchased. infestor owned units are hitting the market. what barely cashe flowed today might not cash flow tomorrow.
Wow that’s a scary thought when its cheaper to drive than to take the el.
Jon (hold on to something) I agree with you,
a lot of people, like myself, dont work where Pub Trans is the best option.
I would like a more “walkable” hood, but pub trans is not needed for my commute.
its a good option to have but not a necessity as Central Air is 🙂
“As far as the el goes, I think I’ve argued this point enough on here. Soon it will be the case that it’s cheaper to park than it is to take the el — let’s revisit it then.”
Seriously? You think that cars are the way of the future and public transit is on the outs? Man, I should hook you up with my dad – you guys would have fun talkin bout how like, cars were EASY when NOBODY ELSE used to live in the big city.
As far as mega big houses go – how many 3000 sq ft+ houses are on the market in Chicago now in okay but not great neighborhoods for 900k-1.4mil? I bet that there are a lot. Why buy a place to gut when you can already buy that uber-huge place and pay for parking downtown?
“Soon it will be the case that it’s cheaper to park than it is to take the el — let’s revisit it then.”
wtf? That is happening… never, so yeah.
“Seriously? You think that cars are the way of the future and public transit is on the outs?”
No I think that cars are the way of the present and public transportation sucks. I live 3 blocks from a train that would get me 3 blocks from work and I love to drive. The incremental cost/time of driving makes it worth it to me. I rest my case – understand that people don’t agree but if you are looking to buy an expensive place in the city, you aren’t going to call a cab when your kid needs to go to the hospital or rent a zipcar to visit family. You (well, ok, maybe you) just don’t. Sorry I brought it up and just say hi to your dad for me (no need for us to discuss our agreement on transportation).
“homedelete on December 1st, 2009 at 3:23 pm
Rents are dropping at the same time that a flood of newly purchased. infestor owned units are hitting the market. what barely cashe flowed today might not cash flow tomorrow.”
Rents are dropping a bit, but RE prices are dropping faster and further.
I dropped rent for an apartment in my ( owner occupied) building by 5% this year, but my rents are still approx. 15% over what I got when I stared in 2004.
On the other hand, if I needed to sell my bldg ( which i don’t), I’d be lucky to get 70% of what I paid five years ago.
Don’t worry, dahlichi, rents and prices will continue to decline. As HD pointed out, it’s a feedback loop that won’t be easy to stop until employment returns. A “jobless recovery” certainly won’t stop it.
BTW, depending on when you bought in 2004, that 15% rent increase since that time equates to about $0 in real dollars.
I am cash flow positive [o/o] on my place as of Jan 1. bought in ’09
That’s feels good, take that G and HD. got to counter act that pessimism, if you guys look I am sure you’ll find a place to buy.
if the place’s gut were modernized it will sell with a good margin above market value (550K), it looks fantastic.
“BTW, depending on when you bought in 2004, that 15% rent increase since that time equates to about $0 in real dollars.”
if we are in deflationary period then its actually a guaranteed gain.
are prices moving up or down?
Gary,
Every multi-family building I’ve closed (as well as the rest of my office) in 2009 has been cash-flow positive. On real numbers. Certainly varies by type of building, # of units, and location. That said, I haven’t sold a 3-flat this year and if you’re probably not going to find one that generates cash flow in a location you’re comfortable with. They don’t (and in my opinion shouldn’t) trade at the same Cap Rates and generate the same returns that larger buildings trade at…
I haven’t seen many multi-family closings this year myself but I’m glad to hear, antithetically, that things are returning to cash flow positive. I thought it was interesting that you mentioned that none of the properties are in locations that Gary can be comfortable with … meaning you’re talking about 6/8 flats in the ghetto being bought for pennies on the dollar from the bank with the hopes of renovating and filling with section 8 tenants. There are plenty of deals on the south and west sides, I just haven’t seen too many northside 6 flats selling for rates that might csh flow.
“#AaronERG on December 2nd, 2009 at 11:09 am
Gary,
Every multi-family building I’ve closed (as well as the rest of my office) in 2009 has been cash-flow positive. On real numbers. Certainly varies by type of building, # of units, and location. That said, I haven’t sold a 3-flat this year and if you’re probably not going to find one that generates cash flow in a location you’re comfortable with. They don’t (and in my opinion shouldn’t) trade at the same Cap Rates and generate the same returns that larger buildings trade at…”
Two and three flats in decent nabes in Chicago are often owner occupied, so the owner is looking for both a home and an investment, frequently in that order.
So i don’t think you can walk around a neighborhood like Lincoln Square and say that house makes sense at 575k but that two flat (same size, same lot) only makes sense at 375k.
“So i don’t think you can walk around a neighborhood like Lincoln Square and say that house makes sense at 575k but that two flat (same size, same lot) only makes sense at 375k.”
Well, you can, but you’ll never get to be a buyer of a decent 2-flat at $375k if the SFHs are $575k. ‘course, a little bit south and it’s 2-flats for ~$500-600k and sfhs for $850k+, unless the owner unit of the 2-flat is *very* nice.
“So i don’t think you can walk around a neighborhood like Lincoln Square and say that house makes sense at 575k but that two flat (same size, same lot) only makes sense at 375k.”
Well, you can, but you’ll never get to be a buyer of a decent 2-flat at $375k if the SFHs are $575k. ‘course, a little bit south and it’s 2-flats for ~$500-600k and sfhs for $850k+, unless the owner unit of the 2-flat is *very* nice.”
People on this board seem to think that they can get that elusive turn-key two or three flat for that deep of a discount.
“People on this board seem to think that they can get that elusive turn-key two or three flat for that deep of a discount.”
Hm. My impression is that those people think they *should* be able to more than *can* by updated 2-6 flats in better hoods for ~$175k/key. ‘course, if it were that cheap and easy, we’d have a *lot* of mini-trumps on the board.
But perhaps I’m just assuming a better connection to reality than you are.
AaronERG:
If you don’t mind could you explain this a bit more.
“AaronERG on December 2nd, 2009 at 11:09 am
…. They don’t (and in my opinion shouldn’t) trade at the same Cap Rates and generate the same returns that larger buildings trade at…”
Anon(tfo), I believe that prices should be discounted substantially from today’s price (and they used to be prior to the bubble). We wouldn’t have a proliferation of mini-trumps (or land barons as I like to call them) because lending standards were much tighter back when prices were discounted.
Land Barons proliferated when there was easy money and no money down loans. Today we are finally back to an era were down payments and cash flow are required by banks prior to lending; but unfortunately, many sellers are still in the bubble era with their prices.
there will always be landlords and there will always be renters. If landlords cannot make a profit then the rental market will shut down and not function very well. Like I always said, a lot of Chicago’s rental stock is crap because they’re so old; properties haven’t cash flowed in years and this remains true in some of the nicer neighborhoods.
“Hm. My impression is that those people think they *should* be able to more than *can* by updated 2-6 flats in better hoods for ~$175k/key. ‘course, if it were that cheap and easy, we’d have a *lot* of mini-trumps on the board.
But perhaps I’m just assuming a better connection to reality than you are.”
“I believe that prices should be discounted substantially from today’s price”
Yeah, I understand that and the rest. There *are* people who post as if a *nice* two-flat in a desireable location with both units updated post-95 *should* be about $350k *today*. Back that all the way out, and a contemporary 3/2 condo in a 3-unit building next door to that 2-flat should be about $200k–not yet close to happening.
So, while it’s possible that, in the future (and I don’t mean 6 months from now) it will be possible to find nice 2-flats in nice hoods for $350k, for the near term, it remains wishful thinking.
Anon(tfo), Oh I agree. I occasionally lurk on the HBB and there was a post that sort of made sense to me. I don’t entire agree with it (Because there are a lot of people out there floating around with a lot of cash) but it makes sense generally:
– Comment by Michael Fink
2009-12-02 07:59:34
300K isn’t really that low. To afford a 300K home, you should have a 100K household income. 90% of this country makes less than that. Even household income, 100K is only the top 15% (or so) of households. And the median household in this country can’t come CLOSE to affording a 300K home, they can just afford a 150K home. So, you have to be making 2X the median household income to afford 300K, which, IMHO, is probably too high for a FHA loan anyway (why subsidize people making that much money?).
This is really part of the re-education process of the United States. A 300K home is a very upper middle class home. A 500K home is out of reach of just about everyone with income
Apr 13, 2010 Sold $625,000
All these high closing prices this weekend but no financing details 🙁
Such a tease you guys are..