A Unique (and Secret) Church Now Coach House in Old Town: 316 W. Menomonee
Behind the brick walls at 316 W. Menomonee in the Old Town Historic Triangle lies this unusual 3-bedroom property which the listing describes as a “coach house style condo”.
Built in 1932, the listing says it was an Assyrian church which was claimed to be the tiniest cathedral in the world.
The 2-story structure has 14 foot beamed ceilings and unique original flagstone floors in the living and dining rooms.
2 out of the 3 bedrooms are on the second floor.
The kitchen has stainless steel appliances.
The coach house has space pak cooling and a washer/dryer.
There is a big private front patio behind the brick walls as well.
There is no parking, however. There is rental parking in the neighborhood.
Phyllis Hall at Koenig & Strey has the listing. See the pictures here.
316 W. Menomonee: 3 bedrooms, 2 baths, 1500 square feet
- Sold in August 1994 for $230,000
- Sold in August 2005 for $562,000
- Currently listed for $629,000
- Assessments of $545 a month
- Taxes of $7288
- Space pak air conditioning
- Washer/Dryer in the house
- No parking
- Private patio: 13×17
I would have to see it but seems cool and awesome location
the no parking STINKS in that area
This is a great place, and really unusual. Love the stone floors.
It’s a bargain even with no parking, though that will be a deal-killer for many people. But people in the LP-Lakeview area are used to coping with tight parking and having to search for rental spaces around the neighborhood, so maybe it is no big deal.
Better grade of appliances in the kitchen than what you see in most so-called luxury condos, but it could use more workspace.
Really a gorgeous place though, and it has great private outdoor space. I’d be surprised if this didn’t easily sell at the listed price, it is so attractive and unusual with so many great features.
I agree with Laura — great, cool place. But what does one get for the $545 assessment? Seems really high for what is essentially a SFH.
To me, part of the benefit of a coachouse is that it’s a free standing, unattached building.
This is basically a rowhouse, practically attached on two sides.
Agree the assessment is a total pain, as would be listening to how cold the floors are all winter.
And, note sq the footage? I know this is in Lincoln, but, seriously, $420/sq foot for this? Gotta believe there are better options.
I still consider this Old Town Triangle. This area has quite a bit of zoned parking so you could parking on the street without that much difficulty.
I myself wouldn’t buy without the parking, but that’s my personal choice. Not having a garage spot is very common in this area.
I see high prices per sq. foot for some properties in Old Town Triangle, but it really varies. This is getting to the parts that have really high prices like the rowhouses on N. Lincoln Park W
“Better grade of appliances in the kitchen than what you see in most so-called luxury condos, but it could use more workspace. ”
I agree, you could easily place an island of some sort in the kitchen and it would be a lot nicer.
Great property. Not sure about the price (not my market), but it’s beautiful.
My friend has an apartment here that basically backs up to this house, no idea what it was, i’ll have to check it out next time im in the area
Love this place and think it is a great use of space. But those assessments make no sense – there are 10 units in that association. Since all these common charges should be split roughly evenly (snow, insurance, etc.) is it really costing $65,000 annually for this stuff? Thoughts?
“But what does one get for the $545 assessment? Seems really high for what is essentially a SFH.”
Mike, i am with ya cuz. 500 for what snow removal?
My guess would be a special assessment to cover exterior renovation work.
@groove
HOA fees are slight evenly based on the %ownership of the individual unit (based on unit sq. footage). There may be 10 units but I’m assuming that this unit is one of the largest unit in the association. If those other 9 units average 1000sqft each, then this 1500sqft unit is actually 14% of the HOA, not 10%. Also, the total budget will include items that do not impact (directly) this semi-seperate unit: the roof & siding of the main building, common area cleaning in the main building, painting the main building hallways, etc.
so with a 20% downpayment, you get a mortgage+tax+assessments of $4000+/month. $4k/month gets you a ~$800k SFH, with no condo neighbors or common stairs/decks.
“$4k/month gets you a ~$800k SFH, with no condo neighbors or common stairs/decks.”
Not in Old Town Triangle.
A kitchen island is an obvious solution, but that kitchen is so narrow that the island will have to be in the main living space. But maybe that’s OK with a prospective buyer.
COOL! But I agree, I like places like these because they are more sfh than condo. Would be nice to not have those assesments.
I think this place should secede from the association. The battle cry to the board could be “no assessments without better refreshments!” or something like that.
“HOA fees are slight evenly based on the %ownership of the individual unit (based on unit sq. footage). There may be 10 units but I’m assuming that this unit is one of the largest unit in the association. If those other 9 units average 1000sqft each, then this 1500sqft unit is actually 14% of the HOA, not 10%. Also, the total budget will include items that do not impact (directly) this semi-seperate unit: the roof & siding of the main building, common area cleaning in the main building, painting the main building hallways, etc.”
Are there legal restrictions preventing some members of a HOA from spending money on things that do not benefit other members? I’m sure there’s got to be something that prevents extreme cases, but nothing that would prevent the owners in the main building from paying for a higher quality of service than the coach house owner would like, I assume? Would kinda suck to be the one member that has different interests from the others. Any way to secede?
Unique spot. It’s not just the HOA fees that are whack. Those taxes are a high for a coach house/condo.
Valasko and Tom,
Good points, i typed before i thought. Tom nice break down of HOA fees!!! A potential owner would need to dig hard into the HOA budget and how they are broken out to see if maybe they are getting a broom up the bum.
I notice the VT shows a “private” patio and another (right next to) patio. I wonder if the one that is not described as “private” is for the whole complex? that would suck
Yes, under Illinois law, you can assess a unit a greater share if it is directly related to increased costs associated with that unit. For example, if a building had a low rise (2-15) and high rise (15-30) elevator bank, costs associated with each bank could be assessed only against the units they serviced.
“$4k/month gets you a ~$800k SFH, with no condo neighbors or common stairs/decks.”
Not in Old Town Triangle.
…1639 N. North Park. $750k cottage – gotta be at least 1500 sq. ft. My point is that this property wants a cottage price but has all the negatives of a condo.
Not sure if there is any practical way to secede. But would love to hear from the lawyers here.
When you buy a unit you’re basically agreeing to the HOA as it currently exist. You can get on the board to try to make some limited changes. But you relly can’t do much because cond olaw does not allow the creation of more than one class of owner in one HOA. Thats why a lot of multi-building developements have individual building assocations and a master association. Univeristy Village is like that. There a small condo walk-ups, mid-rises buildings, townhomes, SFHs, etc. They all have individual associations, but there is also a master HOA that takes care of things like area private security, plants, etc.
I have a friend in University Commons. He has one of the 1st floor units with a front porch and his only entrance is through his front porch. His building has a lobby, hallways, and elevator. Since he enters directly from outside, he has not hallway and sparingly uses the lobby and elevator. He still pays for it as much as a 3rd floor unit (of same sqfootage). There is also a buzzer and intercom that he pays for but his units not on the intercom since it has a private entrance only. Not to mention, he pays for the light in entry hallways when his unit doesn’t connect to any.
But thats what he accepted by buying that unit.
@coffeeman,
it is possible but not that practical. Remember,the owners who will be paying the higher amount will need to agree to pay the higher amount. Either based on the fact that they are on the board that makes these decisions or if a vote would be needed.
As to the elevator example. So youre on the first floor and say you don’t use the elevator at all. but what if there is a roof top deck or other common area on a high floor?? Hard to assess how much of a common area/ammenity is used by certain owners.
All I was saying is that it is permissible, but by no means obligatory, for an association to allocate expenses attributable to discrete units to those units. In others words, you can but don’t have to. Also, unless it is egregious, an owner in Tom’s University Commons example couldn’t successfully challenge the allocation unless there was fraud or bad faith by the association (business judgment rule).
I think it is possible to secede, but it has to be done with the consent of the association (likely has to be put to a vote of the whole association under most covenants). You’d also likely have to get a new PIN and, at least for this property, get an easement across the common courtyard for entry/exit.
“I notice the VT shows a “private” patio and another (right next to) patio. I wonder if the one that is not described as “private” is for the whole complex? ”
The one that is not private is the access to the private patio and the front door. The 2d pic (from the street) looks across the common area to the fence around the private patio.
I think the neighbor’s driveway being 2″ away from the windows would be a negative, too.
I live in the neighborhood, so I’m very familiar with this and surrounding properties. This is a very good location, even within Old Town. I don’t think lack of parking is a deal killer because it’s common here. As noted, price and assessments are the issue. Compare this property with the row house on St. Paul discussed at http://cribchatter.com/?p=7883. That eventually closed at $640k. No HOA and no assessments, same parking situation, better finishes (in my opinion), more charming (in my opinion), less outdoor space but neighboring rowhouse has a roof deck so I assume it can be added. To me, the row house at $640k makes this property look like a bad deal.
But, for what it’s worth, the row house may have sold for more if the realtor wasn’t incompetent. I called three times over the span of several months to arrange a showing and he repeatedly blew me off.
And this comment is just silly. 1639 is a gut rehab. So they’re really asking for $100k less than a cottage that needs hundreds of thousands of dollars of work. It may not be enough of a discount, but it’s apples and oranges.
“…1639 N. North Park. $750k cottage – gotta be at least 1500 sq. ft. My point is that this property wants a cottage price but has all the negatives of a condo.”
“less outdoor space but neighboring rowhouse has a roof deck so I assume it can be added”
i am ussually wrong, but i have been under the assumption the roof top decks have been banned in old town unless it was built before the “ban”?
“I think the neighbor’s driveway being 2? away from the windows would be a negative, too.”
Anon, missed that one, thats a rough negative! i wanted to point out the common wood staircase, that are always loud, right next to the “private patio” but you found a worse flaw. (us crib haters are getting good)
^^^
Could be. I’ve never researched it, I just figured it would be much easier to get a variance to do the same thing your neighbor has already done.
Izzo:
“Not in Old Town Triangle.
…1639 N. North Park. $750k cottage – gotta be at least 1500 sq. ft. My point is that this property wants a cottage price but has all the negatives of a condo.”
Not even close. Do a google street view of that property. You’re looking at land value at that point for that property. And you’ll have that forever nasty rental next to you
chi:
ok i concede the point on the comp – alanon’s rowhouse is probably a better comp or possibly something like 1818 n lincoln. I just find it hard to justify this condo’s price with those assessments – you can get more for that money even in old town triangle.
@cofeeman
In agreement with you, its possible but not necessarially plausible. Not everything is fair in HOAs but it usually is not that agreegious and/or obvious for anyone to actual have a winable case.
I’m on the board of a midsized condo building, which I don’t live in anylonger (rental property). I get unit owners who get pissed that the HOA paid for a roof repair. They think that only the top floor untis should have to pay for it. Lots of condo owners are compleately ignorant about how condo buildings/hoas actually function.
I also had a friend in a 4 unit building, the top floor had a private roof top deck. They convinced the HOA to pay for snow removal on the deck since it was a limited common element. I tought that was kinda ridiculous, but 3 of 4 board members agreed and so it was.
I went to look at 1818 N. Lincoln. Pretty place, but I think they are out of their minds on price. The finishes are beautiful, but it is tiny. Like, can’t fit a normal couch in your living room tiny. Also, it is right by the intersection of Wells and Lincoln and the master bedroom is on the front. I sat on the bed for a few minutes just listening to traffic, feeling the bed shake every time an SUV drove by. It will take a special buyer – rich, deaf, in no need of closets or parking – to pay over $500k for that place.
“alanon’s rowhouse is probably a better comp or possibly something like 1818 n lincoln.”
“I get unit owners who get pissed that the HOA paid for a roof repair. They think that only the top floor untis should have to pay for it. ”
And when the top floor owners have leaky pipes, only the downstream owners should have to pay for it, right? Because if I live on the top floor, it’s not *my* problem if my toilets flush directly on your head, rather than flowing properly thru the drainpipe. That’s *your* problem.
Interesting thing about the driveway next to this unit – the owners rarely park either of their cars in the driveway. They tend to use the driveway as a yard, since it is their only outdoor space.
“Interesting thing about the driveway next to this unit – the owners rarely park either of their cars in the driveway. They tend to use the driveway as a yard, since it is their only outdoor space.”
Sure, but they could sell next week. And the next folks could park their ’63 Continental there under a pop-up carport and fire it up every weekend (to keep the seals lubed, dontcha know) for 20 minutes.
To Alonon and Izzo
Regarding the row house: I agree that it was a bad realtor. I wouldn’t get callbacks from that realtor too. And as for price, I could have seen it go for 680 – 700k even in this market.
Menomonee is a much nicer street than N. North Park. In general, I think the East West streets in Old Town Triangle are nicer than the North South ones. Key word being in general.
1818 N. Lincoln. I haven’t looked at this property. Is it one of those city specials? where the width of the place is like 18 feet? Personally, I like living near Wells, but not on Wells. I get a cheaper place; I still have access to Wells; I get a quieter, more neighborhood like feel. I considered a SFH on Lincoln, but I was going to discount the price based on the street traffic.
It’s not so much the width as it is the depth. Take a look at the overhead map. The alley behind cuts at an angle, so the further south you go the shallower the lots get. 1818 is at the very end of that angle, so it is very shallow. For comparison, another row house on this street (I think it was 1826 N. Lincoln) recently sold for $850k. Only 6 doors North, but it was much bigger and had a small back patio with a garage.
“1818 N. Lincoln. I haven’t looked at this property. Is it one of those city specials? where the width of the place is like 18 feet? Personally, I like living near Wells, but not on Wells. I get a cheaper place; I still have access to Wells; I get a quieter, more neighborhood like feel. I considered a SFH on Lincoln, but I was going to discount the price based on the street traffic.”
“It’s not so much the width as it is the depth.”
Right, you can’t have a house that’s a chode.
HUGE DIFFERENCE. esp. since I was going to look at 1956 N. Lincoln.
I didn’t notice as much before since I had Satellite view set instead of map view
I really really like the place. But the lack of parking – especially in this neighborhood and at this price point – is a killer. Compounding matters are the relatively small size (1500 sqf) and the high assessments.
I wonder what the HOA provides in the event of a leak in the roof of this place. Or in the event tuckpointing is needed on the coach house. Does the HOA cover all this? If it does, that could be one way to negotiate a lower assessment. Immediately start making racket about the roof, tuckpointing, plumbing, and everything else that could possibly be covered by the HOA. And then offer to cover all your expenses, readjust the assessments going forward to cover just true common area expenses.
No idea if that would work, but it would be worth a try considering this unit seems to be taking it on the assessments.
Stone tile floor on a slab-on-grade (no basement/no crawlspace) makes to very difficult to maintain a warm room temperature in winter. Think “walking on a sidewalk in the winter” cold. Doubtful that exterior walls are insulated, so furnace BTU requirements are significant. Perhaps assessment reflects an enormous winter gas/electric bill due to heating problems. Assyrian cathedral reference aside, this looks like a carriage house conversion. This is an expensive place to live.
I like the Old Town neighborhood, and if we could afford a family-sized small 3-bedrm rowhouse (house price, RE taxes, tuition as package), I’d be there already. My current favorites are 1956 Lincoln (large), 1818 Lincoln (big enough; I’d buy earplugs, so what), and 235 Eugenie. I like small houses.
Anyone see the 2340 Lincoln Park West listing? Now that’s a nice small condo for an empty-nester.
Architect, very nice call on 235 W. Eugenie / 07475066. . . that seems like really good value to me… as long as you can do “narrow living.”
Wow, 1956 Lincoln is stunning (currently under K, listed at 1.4 mil – actually seems like a great price for that place in that location, tho I suppose it’s a bit too close to Gamekeepers for comfort!). Sabrina, how come we never had a post on it?? 🙂
“Perhaps assessment reflects an enormous winter gas/electric bill due ”
looks like electric baseboard heaters, I figure about $600 electric bill every month it’s below 20 degrees. If the assessment covers electric bill thats not so bad.
1956 N. Lincoln has that traffic noise again, but if I recall walking past it, it was a bit set back from the street. Plus it was not at the Wells, Clark turn in, Lincoln intersection. I think it was a Millie listing.
—
Architect: That’s quite a range in properties. Are you saying you like as in a purchase or from a style point of view?
Chichow: lifestyle/architectural style. We’ve already done “3-flat gentrifier”, “mid-century suburban” and “leafy suburb big traditional house”. I’m ready for “small/upscale/urban + out-of-state cottage” retirement.
Yeargh. With Sonies in RN with friends in OT and Alonon and I both in OT and Architect w/ interest, we gotta do a weekend OT walk some Saturday and look at properties.
Sold for 555k
Thanks Chichow. These are all selling for around, what, the 2003 prices?
“These are all selling for around, what, the 2003 prices?”
with 562 in Aug-05, I’d say 555 is may May-05. 03 price would have to be at least 5%^2 less, or under $510, no?