Catching a Falling Knife? 10 E. Ontario in River North
One of the 1-bedroom short sales that we chattered about in 10 E. Ontario in River North in May 2008 sold a few days ago. (Thanks to the tipster who sent me info on this unit.)
Is this buyer catching a falling knife?
The current stats in the building (out of 467 units):
- 64 for sale
- 8 for rent
Some units may both be for sale and for rent.
Short sales and foreclosures continue to dominate the building. We chattered about the stresses in the building in October 2008.
But Unit #2903, one of the larger 1-bedrooms in the building, escaped being bank owned by selling.
See the pictures here.
Here’s it’s history:
Unit #2903: 1 bedroom, 1 bath, 995 square feet
- Sold in July 2006 for $448,000
- Was listed in March 2008 for $329,900
- Reduced
- Was a “short sale heading towards foreclosure”
- Listed in May 2008 for $249,900 (don’t know if the parking is included)
- Sold in December 2008 for $249,900 (still don’t know if the parking is included or not)
- Assessments of $469 a month
Several other “03” tier units are also currently on the market. Here are a few of them.
Unit #2403: 1 bedroom, 1 bath, 935 square feet
- Sold in March 2007 for $442,500
- Currently listed in “short sale” for $240,000 (doesn’t appear to have parking included)
- Listing says it’s “upgraded”
- Assessments of $441 a month
- Taxes of $5254
- American Invsco Realty has the listing. See the pictures and listing here.
Unit #1903: 1 bedroom, 1 bath, 995 square feet
- Sold in June 2006 for $418,000
- Currently listed for $225,000 (parking extra)
- Listing encourages investors and says “our loss is your gain with instant equity”
- Currently tenant occupied on a month-to-month lease
- Assessments of $453 a month
- Taxes of $5239
- Prudential First Realty has the listing. See the listing and pictures here (no pictures of the interior).
Parking is $42,500 in the building. There are no washer/dryers allowed in the units.
I’m sorry but I just have to laugh at the idiots that paid 420k for those terrible units. Cheap, crappy finishes lol white carpet that looks like rental stuff, coffin kitchens, tiny bedrooms, and very little amenities in the building.
At least they gave you a balcony to jump off of once your variable interest only ARM reset.
Yes, how funny that these people lost their home. Suicide is what we should hope for.
This site reminds me of a bunch of girls making fun of another girl for being ugly, fat, slutty, stupid etc. to boost their own ego.
btw- did you know that ARMs are reseting lower?
MADFLY, thanks for the comment. I wonder if the pundits on this site are as vicious when not hiding behind a blog.
You’ve got it upside down, MADFLY. It’s the ugly, etc. kids gloating when the homecoming queen is in a car accident.
EVERYTHING WILL BE OK!!! SUZANNE RESEARCHED IT!!
“btw- did you know that ARMs are reseting lower?”
Lets make fair analogies Joe: its the ugly and sober kids gloating when the homecoming queen used to drink lots of vodka then drive aggressively in her sportscar then winds up in a car accident.
Joe- that’s actually what I had in mind when I posted. The girl being made fun of is not usually the ugly, fat, slutty or stupid one, relative to the ones doing the talking.
If we were in a bull market and the posts showed sellers making money, what would these commenters say? Probably how the idiotic new owners paid so much, how terrible the unit is, how the neighborhood is crime ridden, etc.
Sorry meant 5 year I/O’s
“It is possible, of course, to offer another, more optimistic assessment of the housing market. For instance, what if those towering ratios aren’t signs of excess, but rather are reflections of a fundamental change in the supply-demand equation? Indeed, a lot of prominent people are making that argument. “Prices will keep rising,” says Bob Toll, CEO of Toll Brothers, one of the nation’s biggest homebuilders, because restriction on building will limit the number of new homes coming to market. How will buyers afford ever-rising prices? “People will spend a bigger and bigger percentage of their incomes on housing,” he says. “We could become more like Europe, where people will live with their parents for years until they can afford a house.””
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2004/09/20/381175/index.htm
NEW YORK (FORTUNE) – If you want to know where real estate prices are headed in California’s Orange County, the man to talk to is Gary Watts. The Mission Viejo broker has 35 years of experience and doubles as a spokesman for the O.C.’s Association of Realtors.
But it’s his track record more than his resume that has won him serious credibility with his peers. In 1989 he earned the nickname “Scary Gary” by correctly predicting that the housing market in Southern California was headed for a tumble. Then, in 1996, he was one of the first to call the area’s rebound. Since 1997, Orange County home prices have seen a 195 percent rise. Will the good times last another year? Gary doesn’t hesitate. “Fifteen percent is pretty much in the bag for Orange County in 2006,” he says. “It’s impossible for prices to go down this year.”
http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/13/real_estate/twomarkets_fortune/index.htm?section=money_latest
Suzanne reached this!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubsd-tWYmZw
Bob,
Reflect, for a moment, on how sad and empty someone’s life has to be for them to gloat over a car accident, whatever its cause!
Any buyer who bought into this crap deserves whatever they have coming to them. These bozos gambled large amounts of borrowed money to eek out a capital gain. In the process they drove up the cost of housing for all subsequent buyers. Now that they aren’t making the money they thought they could they’re walking away and letting banks take the hit. I enjoy the schadenfreude.
MADFLY,
Schoolyard analogies aside, in all seriousness many of us saw this coming. Even one of the biggest RE bulls on here, SteveO, once said something to the effect of if housing crashes it is definitely going to take the economy with it. Well he was right on that one.
The removal of old fashioned lending standards made for a great increasing in housing ownership demand: the entire curve shifted to the right significantly as the market for potential owners suddenly exploded. This created much higher equilibrium pricing for housing.
Of course these new entrants to the market should’ve honestly never been given access to home ownership, as they had certain traits about them that made housing ownership previously unavailable to them (bad credit, no downpayment, no steady job, etc). Now that we again realize that these people generally are not good at repaying their financial obligations we have to deal with the fallout they created by entering the marketplace.
Joe cites an article on his site called “Anatomy of a Train Wreck” and it sums it up pretty well.
My 1st comment from http://cribchatter.com/?p=5391 ‘s string still applies.
Building is decent and pet friendly which is cool. Nice balconies too. The thing that sucks is that the pool is on the wrong side of the building so after 12 noon, the building blocks all the sunlight to the would-be sunbathers.
Joe,
I’m definitely no longer gloating. I suppose awhile back I was a bit smug in having dodged the big downturn. Nowadays more angry than gleeful to be honest because this downturn is going to affect almost everyone negatively in some shape or form.
No longer gloating for that and also because unfortunately as HD pointed out initially the banks were held accountable for their bad business practices and left holding the bag but this is no longer the case. Our government has to come along and thrown taxpayer money at these financial institutions that really have no right to be in business anymore.
HD the banks aren’t taking the hit anymore. If you read Citi’s bailout deal they are only on the hook for the next 29B of their losses. After that the US Government assumes 90% of their losses beyond that. Sounds like a pretty sweetheart deal to me. If I were Vikram Pandit I’d say get the casino bus ready because from this point on its heads he and Citi win vs. tails the taxpayers lose!
Privatized gains & socialized losses. Just goes to show America is becoming like the movie Idiocracy: if a whole bunch of banks jump off a bridge at the same time the government WILL bail them out.
How much of our taxpayer dollars went to Morgan Stanley’s bonus pool this year?
well said bob.
“How much of our taxpayer dollars went to Morgan Stanley’s bonus pool this year?”
Just a piece of 70 billion dollars headed to 9 different companies executives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y80iicIE_I0
I looked at this building when it first started conversion and noted how poorly constructed the units were. This was a bad rental. The floors were severely unleveled and just in bad shape. I am just so over poor construction being passed on and people buying the bad product. People need to demand more for their money and great construction is needed.
The poor construction and shabby conversion turned us off this building, at any price.
MADFLY,
Plain vanilla ARMs are resetting to lower rates. But the problem with the housing market was not plain vanilla arms, it was the sort of exotic (such as interst-only) mortgages that Sonies described, which are recasting (not resetting) to far, far higher payments.
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2008/08/reset-vs-recast-or-why-charts-dont.html
in all seriousness, the 225k asking price for the one bedroom seems SOMEWHAT reasonable, given in its in the center of river north.
Lots of sellers.. Fewer buyers.. what more does one need to know?
“This site reminds me of a bunch of girls making fun of another girl for being ugly, fat, slutty, stupid etc. to boost their own ego.”
This site reminds of the internet millionaire who goes back to his high school and sees at the former jock who used to kick sand in his face now cleaning the toilets. Your perspective is skewed.
Non-recourse is your friend, foreclosure is a blessing compared to perpetual debt slavery. I can laugh at the enormity of the brainwashing that made this housing bubble possible, the cognitive dissonance was simply astounding. Of course I am not going to laugh in the face of an individual suffering the economic consequences of their misguided delusions, that would be rude. But I have no guilt at laughing at the situation in aggregate on a non-personal level. I can understand though if you have a difficult time seeing the difference.
Individual brainwashing and stupidity = sad.
Mass brainwashing and stupidity = sad and/or scary and/or sometimes funny.
This building selling out at $400-500 per square foot??? Definitely qualifies as sad and scary (as in “oh my God, these people are driving on the same roads as me!”). When combined with the arrogance (in aggregate) of the ‘me-too millionaire real estate genius you are a dumb renter’ idiots in question, yeah, if I were one of the alluded to renters I might find it a little bit funny…
John
The same thing is going on at 200 N. Dearborn and in 2 years will be in just as bad, if not worse shape. The units there are selling for the same outrageous prices yet arent as good as the ones in 10 E. Ontario, structurally and otherwise. The finishes arent as good, they’ve really cut back on the conversion ‘quality’.
Anyway, which way do these units face? I’m tempted to low ball an offer, maybe under or around 200k? 350-400k for these is outrageous but 150-200k is tempting…
Well put, John.
I love how Joe Zekas thinks the FBs were involved in an “accident” when it was the shills and facilitators like him that took their money greedily while handing over the keys. It doesn’t even matter if they were purposely deceitful or as stupid as their marks.
What a laugh.
I can’t view someone who clearly could never afford his $420K mortgage to begin with as a “prom queen”, or the people who backed away from buying because they knew they couldn’t afford it as the “ugly kids”.
Sorry, but if the only way you could “afford” your house was by assuming a Suicide ARM Mortgage tricked to reset to payments equaling or exceeding your income, and then bragged about how you can afford something while someone else can’t- well, you deserve to have people like myself, who wisely backed away, dance on your grave. What you DON’T deserve is taxpayer assistance in cramming down your mortgage and helping you stay in a home you never had any business in to begin with.
And if the only way you could “afford” the place was on a loan that you had to be able to figure was going to back end you with a monster payment on reset and/or a big balloon payment because the beginning payments were building neg amortization- well, then, you aren’t such a “winner” as all that, are you?
Moreover, you are one of the people who helped create the horrendous economic conditions we are seeing now. Credit abuse and the creation of massive amounts of fake money represented by loans that never stood a chance of being paid back, are the cause of the horrendous situation we are in now, that we will probably take a decade to recover from.
Pursuant to that, it’s now hard to know just how far prices will fall or where they’ll stabilize, or what anything is truly “worth”. I’m using rent-parity for condos I’m considering, and so are the lenders I’m talking to. In the meantime, I only hope I can hold on to my job, let alone get a better one, thanks to the deepening recession due to the necessary deleveraging taking place now.
a,
$150K is probably risky, but $200K is certainly knife-catching in this Invsco fiasco (“Inviasco?”)
G,
Thats why I was thinking of low balling it. I didnt know how low to go though. Bankrate has mortgages at about 5.013%. Taxes + Assessments + Mortgage payment is a little over what I pay in rent now, but owning would be worth that excess.
Its really tempting. Especially if I could get it at 150k.
a,
Add in cost of repairs/maintenance and home owners insurance, and calculate again!
Might be interesting as a rental, as everyone’s pointed out the units look like rentals.
Ken,
If I’m not mistaken, common insurance and basic repairs should be included in the assessments no? I dont imagine my fridge needing to be replaced very often etc.
In a large high rise like this, I dont really see home owners insurance too necessary.
Basic repairs are typically *not* covered by the building. Any time you need to call a plumber, repair a doornob or stuck window, etc., it’s usually on you.
And the insurance for the building will cover the structure of the building, but not stuff/structures in your apartment. In a fire, or say a burst pipe, or burglary, or anything like that, it will be your insurance that will need to cover it. Condo insurance *is* cheaper than single family home insurance, but it is still far more expensive than renter’s insurance (which just covers your stuff.) Example: I went from paying about $125 a year for renter’s insurance, to about $450 a year for condo insurance with a $500 deductible–and my place is only worth about $85,000 (that’s all I covered it for, anyway).
G,
You continue to prove yourself a vile, resentful little failure who has no sense of the people you so casually slam, and less willingness to develop any.
Pot, meet kettle.
Does Joe add this much value to conversations on his own site too?
a,
My homeowner’s insurance is about $220/year, for reference – that’s with a $500 deductible and very high limits.
Dave,
Thanks. You’ve helped clarify that this is a crib where I don’t belong. I won’t be back.
Laura on December 26th, 2008 at 9:44 am
– Excellent post.
David (tfo),
Hmmm…. I’m feeling ripped off. Guess I’ll shop around a little.
Condo insurance for a 1 bederoom shouldn’t be more than $250. You are definately getting ripped off
Joe’s gone! Yeah!
Going back to condo insurance…you’d be foolish not to get it. There are so many things that could go wrong…especially with foreclosures in general.
I think a lot of people tend to underestimate just how bad things can get in a bad high rise. Even if the bank was giving away one of these units for 100K, it could still wind up costing more than renting. $500 a month in assessments plus $500 for the mortgage plus a couple hundred more for property taxes doesn’t sound bad until the building has some major leak or bad balconies and needs to charge a 20K special assessment on your unit. And then when everyone hears the building is a disaster, you’ll have a hell of a time reselling your unit…especially if there are still foreclosures left setting bad comps. I think when you compare a place like this to renting, you have to assume absolutely no appreciation for the next five years, a major special assessment, plus eating closing costs on the buy and the sell and a future 6% commission to an agent. If it’s still worth it after all that, then buy and sleep easy.
What are you talking about Danny, renting is like throwing your money away. You’re just paying your landlord’s mortgage when you rent, didn’t you know?
How many times have this Joe joker say he’s leaving this site and then showing up the second his name is mentioned? He sounds just like Cartman “Screw you guys, I’m going home”
Many homeowner’s associations will require that you have a certain amount of insurance coverage. Mine actually went down considerably when I bought vs. renting.
I agree with Danny in that these units are worth SOMEthing (for the location alone), but nowhere near as much as they once sold for. The only way I’d ever think of buying in an Invscamco conversion is if I got the place so cheap it could make up for things like poor quality finishes, high/special assessments, low resale, etc.
Kenworthey,
Just to make sure it’s an apples to apples comparison, I’ll add that I’m in an association that consists of two 30-story highrises, 60s-vintage, with around 550 units total between them, in the 60610 zip code. Unit is 800sq ft. VERY high individual unit coverage mandated by condo board – I’m guessing at some point in the past there was a Traumatic Event about which no one dare speaks.
Your lender will also make sure you are adequately insured.
American Invsco strikes again. I wish more people knew how bad this company is.
Thanks, David. That’s very useful. I need to check to see what our co-op has. I know we don’t mandate any individual unit coverage (though we probably should). It’s possible that I’m paying for coverage that the co-op already covers.
I’ve lived in this building when it was a rental. The location is great and if you live in either the Tier 01 (convertible) or Tier 02 (1 bedroom) or any of the 2 bedroom units, you’ve got a pretty decent view of the skyline (for impressive views, you’ll have to be above the 30th floor). The balcony is MASSIVE. Every unit has a 150 Sq. Ft. balcony – very nice!
Now, while it’s nice from the outside, there are a few things that can irk you –
The elevators are S-L-O-W!
If you’re on a high floor, it can actually take a while. The low rise elevators are worse than the high-rise ones but both are pretty bad.
There are NO washers/dryers allowed in the units.
The building’s just not wired/plumbed for it.
The floors are uneven sometimes.
The living room floor in my living room was uneven and I had to prop up my TV stand on one side. I guess it’s not a big deal if the place has hard flooring but it’s annoying if there’s carpeting because newer carpeting masks the problem until you place something heavy there.
The laundry room can fill up VERY fast on weekends.
There’s just one floor dedicated to laundry (27th). Actually, it’s not even the whole floor. There really ought to be more machines available given that it’s a 50+ floor high-rise with no in-unit W/D hookup.
The building is over 20 years old. This is not really a bad thing but that’s about the time when stuff needs replacement so watch out for those “special assessment” letters. Speaking of assessment, you’re paying at least $400 and that’s only likely to go UP in the days ahead since the place is getting older. It’s a lot to pay given that you’ll have to pay a ton to park your car in neighborhood – another $220 in the attached garage. So, that’s an additional $620 – $700 a month on top of mortgage and taxes. You can buy a spot but they run $25000 and up and you still have to pay assessments on that.