Do You Still Want to Be a Landlord? A Vintage 3-Flat at 2117 W. Concord in Bucktown
This vintage 3-flat at 2117 W. Concord in Bucktown came on the market in May 2018.
Built in 1885, the 3-flat has a brick and limestone exterior as it sits in a neighborhood with many historic mansions that were built for the wealthy.
It is on a wider than standard Chicago lot, which the listing calls a double lot, measuring 101 x 45.8.
The building has 8 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms in the following configuration:
- Unit #1: Ground floor 3 bedrooms, 1 bath
- Unit #2: First floor 3 bedrooms, 1 bath with an artificial fire place
- Unit #3: Second floor 2 bedrooms, 1 bath with an artificial fire place
The building has maintained many of its vintage features on the first and second floors including hardwood floors, crown moldings, tall ceilings, built-in hutches and cabinets and ceiling medallions.
The listing says the building has undergone “extensive renovation” including exterior window restoration, newer mechanicals, the enclosed porch was restored and new Marvin windows were installed in the full floor attic.
The attic level is currently not being used and the listing suggests that that a new owner may be able to make a huge 3,000 square foot unit out of the second and third floors.
The property has 4-car parking, including a 3-car garage.
Currently, each unit has 1-car garage parking included.
They also have central air and washer/dryers in each unit.
The listing says there are newer kitchens and baths and the pictures show stainless steel appliances in two of the kitchens (the third kitchen is not shown).
Here are the current rents:
- Unit #1: $2395 a month
- Unit #2: $2495 a month
- Unit #3: $2650 a month
This building is just a block or two from the red hot North/Damen/Milwaukee intersection including all the shops and restaurants as well as the Damen Blue Line stop.
The listing calls this property a “rare opportunity.”
Is it?
2117 W. Concord: 3-flat, 8 bedrooms, 3 baths, 5000 square feet
- Sold in October 1996 for $315,000
- Sold in March 1998 for $523,000
- Sold in June 2004 for $799,000
- Sold in May 2005 – but price not listed in CCRD
- Originally listed in May 2018 for $1,989,900
- Currently still listed for $1,989,900
- Monthly rents total: $7540
- Taxes of $14,766
- Tenants pay gas, electric, heat
Looks like a 3.8% cap rate to me. Meanwhile, I see investment properties trading in Lake View all the time for 6.5%.
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2117-W-Concord-Pl-60647/home/13355051
Wow that 1996 price. In the fall of 1996 I was trying to decide between buying some property or going to G-school. I believe I made the right choice, especially since I could, no way no how, come up with the scratch to buy this house even at the 1996 price.
but man if I had, would I have kept it as is, converted into kick as SFH or sold to become condos (like this might likely become).
nice crap rate… LOL
likely only set to shrink over the next few years…
Is this really Bucktown or Wicker Park? I’m pretty sure it’s Wicker Park but I see a lot of realtors pushing Bucktown since it is “hotter” at the moment.
If you’ve already won the financial game of life and you’re looking for a relatively stable buy & hold with lower tenant turnover then this is probably a good option as the location and neighborhood are excellent, but you pay for it in purchase price and reduced ROI. Otherwise there are properties northwest of here (portage, jeff park) that get cap rates 5%-6%+ along with considerably lower purchase prices and where taxes aren’t too insane, schools are decent, neighborhood just as safe if not safer, and there’s a prospect of greater long term appreciation as millennials begin moving farther up Milwaukee ave and want more space for their money.
North of North Avenue should be Bucktown. However, I’ve had clients get pissed off and insist that it’s Wicker Park. It’s a tough business.
The cap rate is 3.8% only if there are no maintenance expenses. I doubt that a building from 1885 will have no maintenance expenses.
Correct. We always use a simplified cap rate which ignores maintenance and other expenses such as utilities. The reason is because we don’t have that information uniformly across properties. But doing it this way does allow us to roughly compare different opportunities.
I would at least count a lawn care and snow removal contract as a maintenance expense.
@Gary – I see your point for using a simplified cap rate, but it does mean that the actual cap rate can and will be much lower.
True. What I described is just for comparing opportunities to determine the “market value”. When it comes time to invest there is another level of analysis that needs to occur that includes looking at all the expenses, including deferred maintenance. That determines if a particular investment will meet the investor’s investment objectives.
Glad I’m not a renter. $2,500 a month and you only get one bathroom? Ugh.
“where taxes aren’t too insane”
Those taxes are the “right” taxes for $800k of non-owner-occupied 1-4 unit properties in Chicago, wherever they are. If you bought 3 houses in Jeff Park as rentals for $800k total, your total taxes “should” be about the same.
“use a simplified cap rate which ignores maintenance and other expenses such as utilities”
Only way to do the first pass, to figure out if looking more is worthwhile, assuming cashflow has precedence over appreciation.
@Gary, my first investor’s investment objective would be to cover the mortgage.
I ran a simple mortgage calculator of $1,989,900 (zero down), 4%, 30 years (no PMI, no taxes, no insurance included) = $9,500/month.
Monthly rents are given: $7,540
The rents won’t even cover the mortgage.
Indeed. Simple rule is that the simplified cap rate has to be greater than the mortgage rate. If you want to be cash flow positive after mortgage payment then it has to be significantly greater.
The ask makes no sense whatsoever as vb points out. Even if you put 20% down on this, rental income would not cover the monthly mortgage – – you would still be about $1,000 short. Then you have to pay taxes, insurance and upkeep.
Good luck.
Cap rates are nice – – if you are a big institutional investor. They are a nice tool for pointing out how absurd an asking price is – – this isn’t Class A office space in the loop…but ultimately as a valuation tool for rinky dink properties like the Subject, they make little sense. Other hyper local factors are better gauges of value…such as the individuals’ unique risk and return requirements.
Listing sez 8 parking spaces–where are they?? Looks like three garage spots and a tiny pad spot.
“Wow that 1996 price.”
There was bad gang activity in this neighborhood in 1996. Gunshots. Burglaries. Muggings. The usual.
I had friends who bought in 1992 just down Hoyne (south of this location by about a block.) It was brutal for over 10 years. There were gunshots at night all the time.
No thanks. Not worth it.
Three flats rarely make money. You really need 6 to start turning a profit. Three flats are good as an owner occupant, where the owner can live cheap, maybe kicking in a few hundred bucks to cover the mortgage. But this won’t work here either. Pass.
I disagree. I see people making money on 2 and 3 flats all the time. But it won’t happen on this one at this price.
Gary, the three flats where people make money were bought a long time ago and the property and rents, appreciated. I have one of those too. Bought in WP in early 90’s for nothing, and now, obviously, rents skyrocketed so good for me. Or, you can buy in a bad neighborhood and CHA it. But it would be very difficult, almost impossible to buy in a good neighborhood, or even an up and coming neighborhood and turn a profit with a three flat. Plus, if one apartment vacates, 33% of your income is gone if you don’t have an immediate move in. But, at the end of the day, if you can get others to even help pay your mortgage, then you are batting 1000.
Cap rates have certainly gone down in the last few years and it’s hard to get a good return in good neighborhood. We usually tell people that they need to go west or north to get better returns. But, I still see people getting decent returns even in good neighborhoods. What is wrong with this one, though I never actually saw it? https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/Undisclosed-address-60657/home/13363103
However, you are correct that with a small number of units the vacancy risk creates greater income variability. But many people manage to keep their vacancies way down.
That was 1127 W George BTW.
“What is wrong with this one”
I don’t care how bad it was in ’13, that sale was a screaming deal. Way below land value.
Well, never seeing it is something. But the numbers alone won’t turn a profit unless you are giving a huge down payment. But on this George street, let’s say you give 20% and the rate is 5% without any points. Your monthly note is about $4400 and your monthly expenses, including insurance, is $3,000. (Appears the owner pays for gas which is the first thing I would change out, but anyway..). And, that is if the owner is giving accurate numbers. That brings you to $7400. Your income is only $7100. And gas, insurance, and taxes are fairly predictable in the fact that they will only get higher. Just because your gas bill gets crazy, doesn’t mean you can raise the rent. However, this is a good property to be owner occupant and get someone to pay half your mortgage. But it’s not a money maker.
Decent cap rates can be found in safe neighborhoods like Clearing and Garfield Ridge on the Southwest side west of Midway Airport. The neighborhoods are infested with city workers and pensioners, so you never have to worry about a missed rent.
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/6345-W-64th-Pl-60638/home/13995439
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/6435-S-Narragansett-Ave-60638/home/13996540
You can get much better cap rates in middle class neighborhoods on the southwest side of the city west of Midway airport than you can get anywhere on the north side. Clearing and Garfield Ridge are loaded with city workers and pensioners.
https://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/6435-S-Narragansett-Ave-60638/home/13996540?from_mobile_app=true
I had friends who bought in 1992 just down Hoyne (south of this location by about a block.) It was brutal for over 10 years. There were gunshots at night all the time.
that would put them right on North Ave…I’m assuming you meant one block south of North ave (and true Wicker Park), which would make sense but that would still have been a different world.
The difference between crime rates are often significant just by being on different sides of of a busy street. I’ve seen this today in Portage Park…I’m north of IPR and have lower crime than my counterparts just 1-2 blocks south of me.
Furthermore with all the many historic mansions that were built for the wealthy that are still around and occupied in 1992, I’m sure this was an oasis of peace tucked behind the crime and gangbangers of the Wicker Park of the 90s
“Furthermore with all the many historic mansions that were built for the wealthy that are still around and occupied in 1992, I’m sure this was an oasis of peace tucked behind the crime and gangbangers of the Wicker Park of the 90s.”
Nope. It sucked in Bucktown in the 1990s too. Didn’t matter if you crossed over North Avenue (but you’re right about crime being block by block in most neighborhoods.)
And having mansions is irrelevant. There are mansions on MLK boulevard on the South Side too. Also on the boulevard near Douglas Park that I wouldn’t even drive by during the day ten years ago. But mansions they are.
The mansions in the Prairie District were abandoned for decades.
Actually, now that I’m thinking about it, many of the old mansion neighborhoods tanked at one point. There are also some lovely mansion like houses on Madison in Austin.
“Your monthly note is about $4400 and your monthly expenses, including insurance, is $3,000.”
I think your monthly expenses are too high. Property taxes are $1000/ month but will definitely go up. How much is insurance? I understand that the mortgage payment is real cash leaving your pocket every month but $1000 of that goes towards principal repayment and is not really an expense. The other thing is that over time your rents will go up and the cash flow situation improves. Then there are the tax benefits of the depreciation.
Is it a screaming deal? No, but it’s not horrible either. The recent rise in mortgage rates have definitely made these less attractive though.
This is pretty straightforward. The place is radically over priced. I assume they are trying to derive value from the 2nd lot, but as it’s not developable without tearing down the building it has limited value. Especially as the third unit is g, and likely
Charming building, but it doesn’t sell for more than 1.2
@gonefishin
It’s not difficult to make money off a two a three flat. I’m in a 3 not far from this listing, and if I impute my rent, I have a cap rate of 9.3.
Left one thought trailing there, meant to say:
“Especially as the third unit is g, and likely not above board, you have a mismatch between price and property type. It’s trying to sell for an owner occupant premium, but you don’t buy a charming but imperfect 3-unit property with landlord duties if you’re can drop 2.0m.”
It’s not in Bucktown, it’s in Wicker Park. Bucktown is Fullerton to Armitage, Western to Damen. One more example of r.e. agents disregarding the truth. I remember 20 years ago an agent trying earnestly to convince me that there was a neighborhood called “West Bucktown.”
I think 1.2 is about right, but there’s always a bigger fool.
“It’s not in Bucktown, it’s in Wicker Park. Bucktown is Fullerton to Armitage, Western to Damen.”
North Avenue to Armitage is not Wicker Park. That is flat out Bucktown.
There is some debate about the exact borders of Bucktown but most people agree that it goes at least as far south as the Bloomingdale Trail – and I think North Avenue – and as far east at least to the Kennedy.
This is a prime example of real estate marketing agent creep. Sorry, but ask anybody who lived in Bucktown in the ’80s (like me) and they will tell you: Bucktown ends at Armitage. Look at real estate listings for the Concord street area from the 80s and 90s and you’ll see “Wicker Park.” Saying that Bucktown goes to North Avenue is akin to the real estate agent telling me that there’s a “West Bucktown.”
There’s also the small matter that some areas of the City are not in any particular neighborhood.
Ask anyone who lived there in the late 1800s. There is no Bucktown. It’s really Polish Downtown.
Ask anyone who lived there in the late 1400’s, pre-1492. It was called Cherokee Downtown.
Bucktown Community Organization says their southern border is North Ave.
http://www.bucktown.org/bucktown/
Wicker Park Committee says their northern border is Bloomington.
http://wickerparkcommittee.squarespace.com/neighborhood-history/
As for it being a real estate agent disregarding the truth because Bucktown is hotter, the text here says “Wicker Park Bucktown,” which seems as honest as one can be given that it’s in the disputed area.
As someone who has never lived in Wicker Park, Bucktown, or, for that matter, Ukrainian Village or Logan Square, I can never remember where the border between any of them is. I do think of Wicker Park and Bucktown as more expensive, but don’t get the impression that either is noticeably more so today (I remember when Bucktown was) such that it’s a big thing for marketing purposes whether this particular property gets described as one or the other. On the other hand, describing a hypothetical property north of Bloomington as Wicker Park in a listing would seem inaccurate given that both organizations say it’s in Bucktown.
Oops, forgot I can’t do two links. Revised to fix that:
Bucktown Community Organization says their southern border is North Ave.
http://www.bucktown.org/bucktown/
Wicker Park Committee says their northern border is Bloomington.
wickerparkcommittee in a search brings up the link
As for it being a real estate agent disregarding the truth because Bucktown is hotter, the text here says “Wicker Park Bucktown,” which seems as honest as one can be given that it’s in the disputed area.
As someone who has never lived in Wicker Park, Bucktown, or, for that matter, Ukrainian Village or Logan Square, I can never remember where the border between any of them is. I do think of Wicker Park and Bucktown as more expensive, but don’t get the impression that either is noticeably more so today (I remember when Bucktown was) such that it’s a big thing for marketing purposes whether this particular property gets described as one or the other. On the other hand, describing a hypothetical property north of Bloomington as Wicker Park in a listing would seem inaccurate given that both organizations say it’s in Bucktown.
“Cherokee Downtown”
Pretty sure that was in BuckHEAD, not Bucktown.
Per the Wikipedia page for Logan Square:
“Bucktown’s original boundaries were Fullerton Avenue, Damen Avenue (formerly Robey Street), Armitage Avenue and Western Avenue.”
Then of course the real estate agents tried expanding the boundaries to take advantage of the cachet of “Bucktown” over “Wicker Park.” Probably the same ones who would try to defend the concept of “dual agency.”
“Then of course the real estate agents tried expanding the boundaries to take advantage of the cachet of “Bucktown” over “Wicker Park.” Probably the same ones who would try to defend the concept of “dual agency.””
“Original boundaries” was 100+ years ago. When the Poles were living in this neighborhood.
In 2018, north of North Avenue and east of Western is now Bucktown. And it has nothing to do with real estate agents expanding the boundaries. It’s been that way since at least 2000 (which is when they may have “expanded” the boundaries).
Again, in 2018, it’s well accepted that north of North Avenue is Bucktown.
“Ask anyone who lived there in the late 1800s.”
It as a thriving Polish neighborhood for a long time, until most of them moved to the suburbs in the 1960s and 1970s (as did many people in the city. Had to abandon ship in those decades.)
“In 2018, north of North Avenue and east of Western is now Bucktown.”
Even the stupid Tribune neighborhood map and JZ agree on this.
“Since 2000” when “they” decided to expand the boundaries? Sorry, but r e agents flogging their wares don’t get to set boundaries. How do you think r e agents got such lousy reputations? You can’t double the size of a neighborhood overnight!
johnc:
Here’s the boundaries as defined by JZ (I can’t say his name because he may show up on this blog) which are pretty well accepted. Maybe it was different in the 1980s when you lived there. But that was 30 years ago and neighborhoods change.
http://yochicago.com/bucktown-wicker-park-apartment-guide/
“Sorry, but r e agents flogging their wares don’t get to set boundaries.”
These boundaries are generally accepted at this point. And you are correct. RE agents had nothing to do with it.
I’m really tempted to say his (JZ) name. It would be fun to get him in on this debate.
“I’m really tempted to say his (JZ) name”
If a few people click thru the link Sabrina posted, I suspect we will get an appearance.
“But that was 30 years ago and neighborhoods change.”
Uh, neighborhoods change character, not boundaries.
Besides, I defy you to show us a single neighborhood that literally doubled in size overnight — Armitage is 2000N, North is 1600N, and Fullerton is 2400N. So “changing” the Southern border from Armitage to North literally doubled the size of Bucktown, per you.
Did Gold Coast double in size? Lincoln Park? Old Irving Park? Ukrainian Village? Heck, why stop at the upscale neighborhoods? Did Back of the Yards double in size?
Sorry, but the only people accepting North Avenue as the southern border of Bucktown are r. e. agents flogging their wares and the dupes who bought from them who can’t afford Bucktown but REALLY want to believe they could.
As for “JZ” I have no idea who he is. Nice person I’m sure, but he doesn’t get to set boundaries.
That house on Concord is Wicker Park, not Bucktown.
John, I am sure the Bucktown Community Organization would be very interested to learn that they are not only serving the wrong the wrong area but also located in the wrong area: “Where exactly is Bucktown? Those familiar with local history will argue that the boundaries correspond to the original boundaries of Holstein. Time does have a way, however, of distorting usage, and others will contend that Bucktown encompasses a much larger area. For the sake of harmony then, let us say that the Bucktown area is bounded roughly by Fullerton on the north, on the east by the Chicago River, North Ave. to the south, and on the west by Western Ave.” http://www.bucktown.org/bucktown/history/
The BCO (different name then, I believe) members I knew in the ’80s (one of whome owned a painted lady Victorian at the corner of Shakespeare and Hoyne – no idea if the house is still there, I hope so) were all of the opinion Bucktown ended at Armitage. I’d like to see the minutes of the meetings as to why and when BCO changed its position.
The Logan Square Organization in the 80s (of which I was a member) also held that Bucktown ended at Armitage.
Be that as it may, when someone wants to double the size of a neighborhood, it’s not because of history. As long as no one equates marketing with truth, no matter.
@JohnC
Where is Bucktown? I’ve never heard of it. It sounds like you, and your r. e. agent friends are trying to invent a whole neighborhood to sell houses.
Back when I lived in the area in the 1870s everyone knew it was Holstein.
The only people trying to call the area Bucktown are r. e. agents PULLING A FAST ONE.
ALL OF MY NEIGHBORS know this area is Holstein and you CANT just make up a WHOL NEIGHBORHOOD!!
THEY can’t just change the name. I would like to see the minutes of the HNA to see who agreed to that there is something called Bucktown. Not anyone WHO ACTUALLY LIVED THERE that’s for sure!
“Back when I lived in the area in the 1870s everyone knew it was Holstein.”
I left when the damn fool city annexed it in 1863. Took away my peace and quiet. Thought that “North Avenue” had some real meaning, and would always be the northern boundary of the city.
1870, 1863 (must have sat out the Civil War), so 150 – 160 years old, anyway.
Lie about age, lie about anything. Didn’t know they had real estate agents back then.
Where I am from (Holstein, Chicago, USA) the young did NOT accuse the elderly of lying. Only a r. e. agent would accuse people who ACTUALLY LIVED IN HOLSTEIN of lying about their own neighborhood. Where d u live? I bet you live in the u. s. of r. e. agent SCAMISTAN.
First you and your r. e. agent friends try to invent whole neighborhoods, and then when you can’t prove bucktown actually exists you stoop to LIES to try to sell your new developments.
Holstein forever, Bucktown never.
“invent whole neighborhoods”
Before I rejected the city, and moved to the countryside, I lived on Edina Place, near Jackson, in what I hear is now called the “Loop”. I don’t like these new-fangled names! Especially when everything in Chicago is rectilinear, with nary a curve to be found! Damn meddling kids!!
“Holstein forever, Bucktown never.”
A long as it’s not a BS marketing ploy by lying r. e. shills peddling their wares and trying to bootstrap their own U&D, I can conjure with that.
Especially after the 1990s.
BTW — the “power” of JZ is? I looked him up. Nice guy, but he can’t set boundaries, and may very well have a vested interest in r. e. shills. Dunno. Where are his 500 apartments?
Still waiting to hear about other neighborhoods that doubled in size. — I’ll make it easy on you: give me one other neighborhood where even an argument can be made that it increased 50 percent in size.
‘Nuff said.
“Sorry, but the only people accepting North Avenue as the southern border of Bucktown are r. e. agents flogging their wares and the dupes who bought from them who can’t afford Bucktown but REALLY want to believe they could.”
I guess hundreds of people have been “duped” for the last 20 years then.
Sorry everyone but that loft you bought on Wabansia in Bucktown is apparently really in Wicker Park.
Not.
“Still waiting to hear about other neighborhoods that doubled in size. — I’ll make it easy on you: give me one other neighborhood where even an argument can be made that it increased 50 percent in size.”
Was the “West Loop” really the size it is now 30 years ago? Doubtful.
Same with Fulton Market. That was just the name of one street. Now it encompasses a much wider area.
Andersonville’s boundaries are much larger than they used to be, stretching much further south as it has gentrified that southern area. You can blame that on real estate agents too, but it’s not like other neighborhoods were really claiming it.
And is the area north of Chicago Avenue and west of Wells really River North or is that Gold Coast? I’ve seen it referred to as both. If it’s all River North up to Division, then I’d say River North has greatly expanded in the last 30 years as well.
Neighborhoods are fluid and change regularly. Most of the north side of the city wasn’t even in Chicago originally.
” You can blame that on real estate agents too, but it’s not like other neighborhoods were really claiming it. ”
Thank you for conceding that r. e. agents were behind the expansions. Didn’t think anyone would be honest enough to concede that “if we aren’t challenged, we’ll claim as much as we can.” AND for the fact that there are parts of Chicago that aren’t in neighborhoods.
Neighborhoods are fluid in character, not boundaries, and boundaries don’t change based on r e agent desires.
Oh, and sorry Sabrina, but the last property I owned in
Bucktown was a house on the 2000 block of Hoyne a few doors South of the Charleston tavern in the early 1990s.
Lofts on Wabansia were after my time.
That Concord house is in Wicker Park. Period.
If the boundaries of these neighborhoods are not fluid then when were they defined, who defined them, and where are the definitions documented? You can’t have static definitions without some sort of authoritative source and a record.
” give me one other neighborhood where even an argument can be made that it increased 50 percent in size.”
Roscoe Village.
Note the sentence in the middle please, Gary: “Who names neighborhoods? Often developers looking for a quick buck name them.”
Pacyga, Dominic (2009). Chicago: A Biography. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. p. 406. ISBN 9780226644325. “Chicago’s neighborhood borders and even their names may change, but fierce local identification remains intact. In the 1950s, nobody would have said they live in Village East or River North, but now most know those newly named neighborhoods” … “Who names neighborhoods? Often developers looking for a quick buck name them.” … “If you try to find Wrigleyville on the official community area map of Chicago, you will be disappointed, as you will be if you search out such legendary neighborhoods as Canaryville, Back of the Yards or Hamburg on the South Side.”
I don’t think that you’ll get any traction with the idea that marketers and r. e. agents get to expand neighborhoods. If they want to make a new name for an area as part of a marketing spiel, sure, hence “River North.” — But salesmen don’t get to redefine existing neighborhoods, let alone double the size of them.
As for Roscoe Village increasing in size by 50 percent — only in teh fervid imaginings of people trying to lay off their inventory for as much commission as they can get.
https://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/doit/supp_info/citywide_maps.html
Community Area Maps
Chicago is divided into seventy-seven (77) Community Areas. These boundaries do not change over time (as political boundaries do), so that information about the city can be consistently collected and analyzed over long periods of time.
Note the statement: “These boundaries do not change over time.”
If you go to the map at the link, you’ll see that Bucktown, part of Logan Square, is clearly labeled north of Armitage.
developers do try thats for sure… remember this?
“developer Fifield Companies has dropped the “Avant” moniker and renamed the project NEXT at NoCA (NoCA being an abbreviation for north of Chicago Avenue).”
public backlash made them reconsider thats for sure
And finally:
http://chicago.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=f00e99da0f3d4aaf8bd6fcba0d0643ba
Stops at Armitage. Goes East of Damen a bit, but stops at Armitage. Even if you add the bit East of Damen, Bucktown doesn’t come close to doubling in size, as it would if you stretched it down to North Avenue.
Apologies accepted.
“Note the statement: “These boundaries do not change over time.””
Read the page you linked to carefully. That statement is under the community area section under the neighborhood section it clearly says:
“Chicago neighborhood names and neighborhood boundaries can change over time. Different people may have different perspectives on the names and locations of specific neighborhoods.
City government does not recognize or use Chicago neighborhood boundaries for any official purposes
The only map of Chicago neighborhoods approved by the City Council was finalized in 1993, and was based on a survey conducted in 1978. The map that resulted from that process is the neighborhood map available here.”
So you linked to a map that was based on a survey in 1978. A SURVEY. There is no official source. And real estate agents did not define these neighborhoods necessarily. It’s clearly a fluid process.
And that arcgis map is a disaster. Totally useless. According to that map the West Loop doesn’t exist and is part of West Town, which is inconsistent with the official definition of that community area.
“And that arcgis map is a disaster. Totally useless. According to that map the West Loop doesn’t exist and is part of West Town, which is inconsistent with the official definition of that community area.”
You wanted documentation, you got documentation. From Chicago City Council and Chicago City web site no less. What do you r. e. agents (not just you Gary, at least you engage on the merits) bring to the table? Not including r.e. agent marketing materials, of course.
And simply because a document disagrees with you doesn’t make it useless. City documents. A cite to an academic’s book. Like I said, apologies accepted.
“that arcgis map is a disaster”
The Treasure Island on Clybourn is part of the Lathrop Homes neighborhood!! ‘nuf said.
But there’s more: Lane Tech–solidly in the North Center community area–is somehow in the Lake View neighborhood. Hell, per that map, Lake View has been expanded by 50% to encompass half of North Center, and the nicer parts of Uptown.
Also: There is no “Wicker Park” on that map–it’s “Old Widker Park”. Even ignoring the typo, I have literally never heard nor seen Wicker Park be referred to as “Old Wicker Park”.
The Loop is clearly practically doubled in size by that map, too–Grand & Milwaukee ain’t the Loop in any sense.
Somehow, the east side of Clark Street in Andersonville is NOT in Andersonville. Must be surprising to the Swedish Museum.
But sure, since it agrees with a conception of Bucktown, everyone should ignore all the obvious errors.
why count on some minimum wage bureaucrat to bother spell checking things on an “official interactive map” when you could use teh googlez map which is pretty accurate in terms of neighborhoods
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?oe=UTF8&msa=0&ie=UTF8&mid=13rPY3gTMOtHUdmp-VKa4waVj6es&ll=41.914809944184555%2C-87.68458602380372&z=13
The ork posters people have Bucktown going *west* of Western:
http://orkposters.com/product/chicago-neighborhood-18-x-24-classic-black-white-poster/
So, goofy, but they at least aren’t realtors.
The google map that Sonies links to has the stoopid Lathrop Homes non-neighborhood all the way to Ashland, which is kookoo, and also Lake View for some reason wrapping around to the west of Roscoe Village, which is just bananas–west of Western isn’t even Lake View Township, so it has literally *never* been ‘Lake View’, even before annexation.
John, your link to that city page actually supports my position:
1) There is no official definition of these neighborhoods
2) They boundaries are fluid
3) In so much as they are “defined” it’s not by real estate agents but rather by residents of the city – i.e. they used a survey to draw the map boundaries.
It’s not that the map doesn’t agree with my beliefs but rather it is inconsistent with the city’s own official definitions of the community areas. Anon found numerous other examples that don’t make sense.
May we please stop this silly bickering and all refer to du Sable 3:16?
“For God so loved Chicago that he gave his one and only map of neighborhoods, that whoever believes in those boundaries shall not perish but have eternal accuracy.”
Well, this johnc character is an exciting addition. And laser focused on neighborhood boundaries! Like an angry mashup of skeptic and I dunno jz or someone.
We should be focused on crazy ass’ments instead. mine went up 25 percent. I guess if everyone’s went up, I’d be somewhat okay, but never seems to work out that way.
DZ- you talkin about tax assesments or association assessments?
either way… ouch!
Gary, borders may change a bit, but that doesn’t make them fluid, especially to the point of doubling the size of a neighborhood. I cannot and do not speak to other neighborhoods as I don’t know them. I do know bucktown, and Concord Street is not in it. Self interested gainsayers to the contrary. I don’t sell real estate and I don’t do marketing and I don’t work on commission, so I have no need to be contrary for the sake of being contrary. That house is mislabeled.
“you talkin about tax assesments or association assessments?”
taxes!
well that sucks, my value doesn’t reasses for another year I believe, but my taxes still went up 800 bucks y/y
“well that sucks, my value doesn’t reasses for another year I believe, but my taxes still went up 800 bucks y/y”
@fo will correct if I’m wrong but I thought the whole city happens in teh same year.
On btown versus old widker, is/was btown more prestigious than old widker. that was never clear to me. so much of btown are those little 100 ft lots. and then the movie of course, which I’ve never watched but I assume was a positive. wouldn’t btown have to be more prestigious to explain its takeover of part of old widker.
and the re-ass would affect taxes paid next year.
oh ok got it, well not my problem TBH
“oh ok got it, well not my problem TBH”
because you selling? buyer may still want to account for this in proration.
“@fo will correct if I’m wrong but I thought the whole city happens in teh same year.”
Yep, whole city re-ass the same year. North Cook another, South Cook another (or other order), then the city again. 3-year cycle
“buyer may still want to account for this in proration”
Buyer *will* unless a moron, with a bad lawyer.
“especially to the point of doubling the size of a neighborhood”
JohnC asks for examples of other enbiggening hoods, cites to maps that show Lake View and the Loop (among possible others) basically 2x the size that any reasonable person would apply, then disclaims any knowledge of other hoods when that facts about his cites is pointed out. Does JohnC happen to employ Ed Burke and have about 250000 sf of B-minus (that’s a gentleman’s B, btw) retail for lease asking for A++++ rents??
“I do know bucktown, and Concord Street is not in it. Self interested gainsayers to the contrary.”
No, you don’t. You admitted you lived there in the 1980s.
My grandmother lived there in the 1930s. Does she “know” it?
The neighborhood, and the entire city, is an entirely different animal than the one in the 1980s.
For a good reference, rent the movie My Bodyguard.
“We should be focused on crazy ass’ments instead. mine went up 25 percent.”
Yep- it’s pretty brutal. But we’re all in the same boat.
And it could get worse. There’s another $400 million pension payment due in 2020. What taxes will go up to pay that?
Re: ” I do know bucktown, and Concord Street is not in it.”
The borders defined by the Bucktown Community Organization are more compelling than your memories of what the borders were in the ’80s. Borders change, names change.
But more significantly, in that your whole point seems to be that the listing is wrong because of some disreputable RE agent who thinks Bucktown is so much more desirable than Wicker Park and so lied, the listing says “Enormous Wicker Park Bucktown Historic Property.” So your premise that there is something dishonest in THIS listing is simply false.
The property seems to be in an area that is currently a bit ambiguous in that it is claimed by BOTH Bucktown and Wicker Park (as defined by their community organizations), and the listing reflects that. Or maybe it’s taking advantage of the fact that it’s close to the border to get people who would prefer Wicker Park as well as those who prefer Bucktown (I do not believe that Bucktown has some huge cachet over WP today, the actual location within each seems more significant).
“There’s another $400 million pension payment due in 2020”
To be clear, that’s an incremental increase in the pension payment baseline, and is “due” starting in 2020, and continuing thereafter, until such time as the pensions are 90% funded, actuarially speaking.
A $400m one-time payment ain’t a big problem for Chicago; a headache for sure, tho.
“The borders defined by the Bucktown Community Organization are more compelling than your memories of what the borders were in the ’80s. Borders change, names change. ”
No, Stephanie, the borders claimed by the BSO for some unknown reason (r.e. agent pressure?) don’t compare with the maps and books and other sources I cited. Particularly when all you’ve come up with is self-interested marketing materials to claim a doubling in size of a hot r.e. neighborhood, driving up commissions.
Borders change glacially. They are not “fluid.” They aren’t even viscous. They don’t change because, as one poster here put it “no one else was claiming it.”
And as for grandmothers living in the 1930s “knowing” Bucktown” If she lived between Fullerton and Armitage, and Western and Damen, yes, she knew Bucktown. Might have had a totally different character back then, but she knew it.
“Fluid” borders, indeed. I can see it now: Owner bought in ersatz Bucktown (say, on Concord) five years ago, now goes to same r.e. agent used in the purchase and the r.e. agent says “Sorry, you’re not in Bucktown, it’s not as hot as X.”
If somebody wanted to say that by consensus of the inhabitants of the old defined Bucktown (F to A, W to D), the borders of Bucktown would extend slightly to reach the Kennedy Expressway between Fullerton and Armitage, I’d be fine with that. But doubling in size by bootstrapping marketing fantasies? Nope.
(1) You have not presented any evidence that the 2018 border of Bucktown ends at Armitage. Instead, you have presented:
(a) an opinion from Dominic Pacyga that local identification determines neighborhoods and acknowledging changes: “[i]n the 1950s, nobody would have said they live in Village East or River North, but now most know those newly named neighborhoods”
This supports the contention that we should go with the BCO and the opinion of people who live in the neighborhood NOW.
(b) an argument that Chicago has 77 official community areas that don’t change.
That doesn’t help your argument because Wicker Park and Bucktown are neighborhoods, not community areas. Real estate listings include the community area, and here it was West Town, NOT “Bucktown,” so it also conflicts with your claim about unethical RE agents. If you are trying to claim that Bucktown is in Logan Square (maybe all Bucktown addresses should be identified as Logan Square, then?) and Wicker Park in West Town, that’s NOT part of what is unchanging, and in fact neighborhood names and official community areas don’t match up perfectly. One example is Old Town, which is both sides of North, so in two community areas. Also “Lincoln Park” the neighborhood, like “Logan Square” the neighborhood is much smaller than the community area by that name (as others have already pointed out).
(c) A map of neighborhoods that includes these disclaimers: “Chicago neighborhood names and neighborhood boundaries can change over time. Different people may have different perspectives on the names and locations of specific neighborhoods. City government does not recognize or use Chicago neighborhood boundaries for any official purposes. The only map of Chicago neighborhoods approved by the City Council was finalized in 1993, and was based on a survey conducted in 1978. The map that resulted from that process is the neighborhood map available here.”
So it’s not official and based on information from 1978.
Your own sources, taken together, say that the opinions of the BCO, the WPO, and the people now living in the area should be determinative, and so I think the southern boundary is certainly not Armitage. It’s North or perhaps Bloomington.
As for your dismissal of my evidence as “self-interested marketing materials,” I will note again that what I relied on is the community organizations for the two neighborhoods involved. Hardly self-interested marketing material.
Or are you confused and think that I was citing the listing which says “Wicker Park Bucktown” and “West Town” as evidence that it’s in Bucktown and not Wicker Park? If so, you misread, since obviously that was not the argument. Again, the point I was making is that you started by claiming that this property was being inaccurately claimed as Bucktown, not WP, because of dishonest RE agents. But the RE agent involved highlighted WP, as well as Bucktown (consistent with it being in a disputed area and NOT suggesting that he or she was running away from WP). So the whole premise of the claim was wrong.
I was going to have a (2) but then included it in my (1) and forgot to delete the (1). So please ignore the problematic numbering!
I think that all of this dispute over which it is is really an indication that it is actually part of Russia, and we should expect it to be handed over to Putin within the next few days.
” I will note again that what I relied on is the community organizations for the two neighborhoods involved. Hardly self-interested marketing material.”
Logan Square Neighborhood Association always said Armitage. Bucktown organization made a change at whose instigation, and on what basis? Unknown. I say at the instigation of r.e. agents.
Sorry, but only self-interested marketing materials can purport to justify a doubling in size of a neighborhood.
As for surveys,at least I showed you one. You’ve shown nothing. Take a survey of the original area (Fullerton to Armitage, Western to Damen, and ask the inhabitants (not the real estate agents) whether Bucktown extends to North Avenue. Check your results and see.
Wicker Park is a nice, hot, neighborhood, and that Concord house is in Wicker Park.
And I bet a survey of the residents of Bucktown (e.g., people north of Armitage) will agree.
“And I bet a survey of the residents of Bucktown (e.g., people north of Armitage) will agree.”
Ick, can you get something going on surveymonkey? I’d bet that they don’t think it ends at Armitage (even if you restricted teh survey to residents n of Armitage). I would vote bloomingdale for the border fwiw. I’d also bet if you asked residents of widker (however you want to define it), they don’t think it goes up to Armitage.
“Ick, can you get something going on surveymonkey?”
Interesting proposition. No idea how you could limit the survey to real Bucktown residents (both as to being people and being in the original F-A, D-W area), particularly bona fide ones, or prevent duplicate submissions, though.
As for Wicker Park not going up to Armitage, nobody ever said it did. There are parts of Chicago that do not belong to a neighborhood and that fact has been acknowledged by r.e. posters on this comment chain (I particularly liked the one who posted that no one else was claiming an area for a neighborhood, therefore r.e. agents could). I know when I lived in Bucktown (the real, undisputed, Bucktown) there was a gap between Bucktown and Wicker Park.
But would the residents of Wicker Park think that Wicker Park went past Concord?
Good idea, though.
And now we have a natural experiment about r.e. agent “area creep”: How long before r.e. agents claim that Lincoln Yards covers a larger area than it actually does? I’m guessing about 2 nanoseconds.
“I would vote bloomingdale for the border fwiw.”
Me too!
JohnC, I understood your initial claim to be that a dishonest RE agent was calling this property “Bucktown” when it’s properly WP, and was doing so because that supposedly makes a difference to its marketability. Can we now agree that the RE agent in question, who called the property “Wicker Park Bucktown,” was not being “dishonest” but reflecting common current usage?
Regarding the claim that “RE agents” changed the definition of Bucktown and WP, that seems to be imbuing them with a lot of power. I’ve certainly seen incorrect listings back in the day (more commonly when every listing didn’t come with a map and an official listing with the community area), and yet the boundaries of Lincoln Park still don’t include Wellington. So I think there’s more to the shift in Bucktown’s and WP’s borders than RE agents and their “marketing materials.”
Among other things, that whole area has changed a lot since the ’80s.
“As for surveys, at least I showed you one.”
What survey.
“You’ve shown nothing.”
I showed the current definitions used by the relevant community organizations. Also, I don’t care what the boundaries are, so will go with the neighborhood definitions, and you seem really invested for some reason. Just old time sake?
Here’s an article about the border:
https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20150904/bucktown/north-avenue-or-606-readers-weigh-on-bucktown-wicker-park-borders/
“Last month, DNAinfo Chicago launched an interactive Web app to find out where our readers think are each neighborhood’s true boundaries are. About 560 people participated in the challenge to draw Wicker Park and Bucktown’s borders.
Based on crowd-sourced lines, North Avenue or The 606’s Bloomingdale Avenues are the majority’s top two choices for Wicker Park’s northern border.
Most Bucktown map artists consider North Avenue to be Bucktown’s southern border but lines were also dark at The 606’s Bloomingdale Trail along Bloomingdale Avenue and at Armitage Avenue.”
“The Bucktown Community Organization has defined Bucktown’s southern border as North Avenue since 1974 when the neighborhood group was chartered, said Steve Jensen, the group’s president.
“We’ve been sharing the area between Bloomingdale and North Avenue [with Wicker Park] for some time now. We recognize our border and they recognize theirs,” Jensen said.
But members of the Wicker Park Committee say that Wicker Park continues two blocks north of North Avenue to The 606’s Bloomingdale Trial.
Teddy Varndell, a Wicker Park resident, calls the two block stretches of Damen and Milwaukee Avenues in the 1600 to 1700 blocks extending north to the Bloomingdale Trail “Bucktopia.”
New businesses along those two blocks often market themselves as being in Bucktown rather than Wicker Park, a practice that Cyril Landise, co-owner of the Northside Bar & Grill at 1635 N. Damen Ave., says is driven by marketing.” [note: not by RE agents]
“real Bucktown residents (both as to being people and being in the original F-A, D-W area)”
my wife, who was a real btown resident by your defn in the early/mid 2000s, and before that a real old widker resident (right by the park), says the s border is north ave.
“my wife, who was a real btown resident by your defn in the early/mid 2000s, and before that a real old widker resident (right by the park), says the s border is north ave.”
Very convenient, especially now. The little woman will no doubt prove her bona fines and take part in a rigorously controlled survey (her domicile documents included).
“Bucktopia” need not apply, as that was obviously real estate agent aspirations. — Even if owner aspirations, still as biases as r. e. agents wanting to lay off their wares to the highest (ignorant or not) bidder, need not apply.
And your wife is showing up now, because…?
“Very convenient, especially now. The little woman will no doubt prove her bona fines and take part in a rigorously controlled survey (her domicile documents included)”
If you make it worth my while, I suspect I could dig up some proof of her address, though that was a long time ago.
“And your wife is showing up now, because…?”
I dunno, I’m really not that interested in the boundary debate and it was not what I engaged on initially on this page. I raised the survey mainly bc I wanted to get on ick’s case about performing some of his IT duties, not bc I care about the survey.
Really should be working on my tax appeal.
“No, Stephanie, the borders claimed by the BSO for some unknown reason (r.e. agent pressure?) don’t compare with the maps and books and other sources I cited. Particularly when all you’ve come up with is self-interested marketing materials to claim a doubling in size of a hot r.e. neighborhood, driving up commissions.”
Again- you moved 30+ years ago. The neighborhood has completely changed.
Why do you care now?
I’ve cribbed on other properties on Concord in the past, including condos (they’re just down the street.) Neither you, nor anyone else, showed up to claim the property was in Wicker Park because it was in the 1980s.
I don’t get it.
And now it’s just Wicker Park up to Concord? Nothing north of that is in Wicker Park? I’m confused. Is it up to Armitage or not?
“A $400m one-time payment ain’t a big problem for Chicago; a headache for sure, tho.”
What???
You are insane. Is it just sitting around in our treasury?
The last time we had a one-time pension payment, taxes went up. There really isn’t any other choice. You can only cut so much in the budget to keep coming up with these payments.
And none of the mayoral candidates are talking about it because, like 4 years ago, none of them know what to do to pay it only a few months after they’re elected. This is why Chuy lost the last time. He had no clue how to handle the pensions. I have to hand it to Rahm on the money side. He has stabilized the financial crisis even though it’s been painful. More pain likely to come.
John,
I don’t know how you imagine this works with real estate agents. I’m with Stephanie. I think you are imbuing them with way too much power. Like…do the agents have meetings to get agreement among themselves on this stuff? How do they get the general public to agree with them? Where do they document it? Did they call Google to tell them to set the boundaries? Were they involved in the original definition of the neighborhood?
Yeah, I see agents stretch the truth on their listings all the time but how do you get from there to everyone else accepting their new definition – and which agent’s definition?
I’ve been reading this blog for nearly a decade, and this has to rank as one of the most ridiculous topics that has ever spanned multiple days on this site.
How’s Leapfrog’s stock doing?
“Yeah, I see agents stretch the truth on their listings all the time but how do you get from there to everyone else accepting their new definition – and which agent’s definition?”
I don’t imbue r.e. agents with power. Which is why Bucktown doesn’t go to North Avenue. I just want r. e. agents to stop pretending that it does. I particularly want them to stop pretending that it does and that they are only “following” the resident’s consensus.
And we have a natural experiment that will play out over the next several years: Lincoln Yards. How long before the shills start trying to expand its borders? I say about two nanoseconds.
I’ll put this conversation aside until then.
$400 million comes out to about $150 per person in Chicago. They should charge every single person a one time fee of $150 (spread it out over a year for poor people). For children, charge that to the parents. It’s ridiculous that the taxes aren’t spread out at all in this city. Huge swaths of people in this city contribute nothing and take everything.
“The last time we had a one-time pension payment”
Cite, please. When (at all recently) did the *city* make a non-recurring payment to any of the pension funds? There have been huge jumps which become the baseline for the following years payments, but not one-time special contributions.
If there were a $400m, one-time, payment, it would be not good, but not terrible. In reality, it is a $400m increase, with compounded increases off that new baseline for at least 30 years.
“start trying to expand its borders”
Expand “Lincoln Yards” borders? To cut into–what? Lincoln Park? Bucktown?? Jump the river and claim part of Goose Island??
Its going to be most of the area from the Kennedy to Clybourn, Webster to North. Which, I suppose, means the (basically orphaned) area bt Webster and Fullerton is the ‘expansion’ area.
“And we have a natural experiment that will play out over the next several years: Lincoln Yards. How long before the shills start trying to expand its borders? I say about two nanoseconds.”
What do they call North/Clybourn? Technically it’s Lincoln Park but many simply call it “north/Clybourn corridor.” It has never caught on as Lincoln Park by the public.
Lincoln Yards will probably just be called Lincoln Yards by the public. Lakeshore East is called Lakeshore East by everyone and that was the original name given it by the developers.
It’s really not some conspiracy.
West Bucktown is the only designation in recent memory that gives me a chuckle because it really usually is just Humboldt Park.