How Low Will They Go in 2625 N. Clark in Lincoln Park?
We’ve chattered about the 2005 high rise conversion at 2625 N. Clark in Lincoln Park several times over the last few years.
I decided to post on it again because some of you were chattering about it in one of the other threads.
Also, this 1-bedroom on the 7th floor was recently reduced another $14,000 and still isn’t selling.
Now priced at $75,900, the 705 square foot 1-bedroom has carpeting and an unrenovated kitchen.
There is central air but no washer/dryer in the unit. And the listing doesn’t say anything about parking.
How low will the units go in this building?
Sheri Kamikow at Coldwell Banker has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #705: 1 bedroom, 1 bath, 705 square feet
- Sold in February 2006 for $272,500
- Lis pendens filed in November 2009
- Bank owned in October 2010
- Originally listed in December 2010 for $89,900
- Reduced
- Currently listed for $75,900
- Assessments of $446 a month (includes doorman, cable/tv)
- Taxes of $3757
- Central Air
- No washer/dryer in the unit
- No parking
- Bedroom #1: 21×12
- Living room: 17×17
- Kitchen: 8×8
Sorry, is this a picture of a cha building or prison? I didn’t know they built crap like this past 1980. A $757 monthly nut after taxes and assessment for a one bedroom with two windows a 1983 style kitchen not anywhere near an el stop? Really, you would have to pay me to buy here and rent here. Depressing.
“not anywhere near an el stop?”
Is that a plus or minus?
There seems to be a vast oversupply of boxy, bland little one bed apts in this city. It’s difficult to believe that someone once thought this place was worth nearly $300K.
The HOA is awfully steep even for a high rise with a few amenities.
I like the location, but not as much as if it were on Sheridan or Lakeview facing the park, or if it were near an el stop.
It’s priced at rent parity for the area, so it’s OK for the money, but it’s no gift.
Sabrina,
Let’s get some good stuff going today. This place is reasonable for a first time buyer but Nasty.
Next!
I notice that the commercial strip on Clark between Fullerton and Diversey has really deteriorated in the past 20 years. This street needs help, mostly rezoning to reduce drive-throughs like the McDonald’s right next to this building, and curb cuts, plus some streetscape upgrades.
I hate this building with a passion. The transit issue isn’t a problem as the lakefront buses are pretty ok getting to the loop. I used to live over at Diversey and Hampden and the area just was not for me.
What gets me is that from some angles the building doesn’t look bad but from the sides there are no windows at all. What is that about?
Anyone familiar with the Long Grove/Kildeer area of the NW burbs? Thoughts on the area would be appreciated.
Seriously fuggly
Looks like a dorm. Not for any body over 25 so much but a young guy just out of school and his girlfriend will think this place is great. Especially if they work in the loop and can hop the clark st bus. This will sell soon for 70k.
1) Who cares about the unit – it is elp so all that matters is location location location!
2) Steve, I grew up near that area. I know people who live out there. I’ve heard rumblings that Stevenson had something like 700 less students for the 2010-2011 school year, bc parents of students who graduated were unable to sell their homes (at vastly inflated bubble prices) to allow for new parents with younger children to move in. I’ve also heard that there has been a lot of reduced income within household due to the economy. But that’s happened everywhere. And the re taxes out there are killer too. There are some deals to be had if you can afford the taxes.
As assessments continue to rise in some of these buildings there comes a point where you basically have to give the unit away because the value of living there approaches the assessment cost. The assessment is much larger here than the mortgage payments.
Damn, and I thought the value declines at my place were bad … at least we’re not yet to 70% drops. Though I’ll be interested in seeing how clio puts an optimistic take on this one!
This place probably shows how some buildings should stay apartments and never have been converted, or should be re-converted to apartments. Does anyone know if any of the conversions in Chicago have been “re-apartmented,” or if there are any plans to do so.
http://shine.yahoo.com/event/financiallyfit/traffic-pain-10-cities-with-the-worst-commutes-2444341/
you mini trumps want to start now. follow the trend Start buying along the train lines in estabilshed but cheap hoods like Avondale, Jeff Park, Mayfair (not reall that cheap anymore), albany park.
along the metra in Galewood, montclaire, hanson park (cragain)
mark my words in 10 years you will rememeber and kick yourself for not listing to the groove.
Gary Lucido: Many older buildings are reaching the point where they have to give the units away because of high assessments, rather quickly. The huge 2 bed 1 bath at 421 W. Melrose is STILL on the market at $159K and there are no takers because of nightmarish maintenance costs.
Owners in these these types of buildings need to seriously study ways of reducing their buildings’ expenses. Winterization strongly suggests itself, and maybe some cherished but unnecessary services and amenities, such as a 24 hour doorman, may need to be dispensed with. I really believe that owners in these buildings are not trying hard enough to reduce expenses in them.
However, they should make sure that their reserve fund is not one of the things they dispense with.
You are corect Gary and Laura. Some of these buildings are like old cars that constantly need expensive repairs. There is a point where it’s better to junk the car and get a new one which means teardown and rebuild. I wonder when we will see the first property on cc offered at zero?
If your are going to pay more than rent, it has to be nicer than a rental. It’s that simple. If they are practically giving it away then maybe CHA should just buy the building from the owners…
Groove: factoring in a driver’s time at $16/hour underestimates the cost by a huge margin. What about the $400/hour attorney? And you have to look at the marginal utility of that time, not just the average cost. Never understood why people put up with it.
Um, this is LINCOLN PARK. We’re not talking West Town. Lakefront, park, transportation, retail, restaurants, affluence. This should sell in a second.
“I wonder when we will see the first property on cc offered at zero?”
Not quite zero, but you get the idea…
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2103-W-23rd-St-60608/home/14143784
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/Undisclosed-address-60623/home/13234343
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/3550-W-Franklin-Blvd-60624/unit-3C/home/18925793
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2358-S-Marshall-Blvd-60623/unit-2F/home/21510112
Oh, and also not quite in the GZ!
Besides decent location does this crappy place get any checkmarks on the list? I don’t think so!
HD – that’s interesting about Stevenson. I remember when they were constantly expanding because they couldn’t keep up with the student population.
“Anyone familiar with the Long Grove/Kildeer area of the NW burbs? Thoughts on the area would be appreciated.”
I’m familiar with this area. Big lots, slightly older homes (and real old in Long Grove). Feels like the country. Lots of woods, ponds, cute downtown Long Grove, near that Deer Creek shopping mall with movies/restaurants. Lots of traffic.
House prices are really falling. HD is right that some older homeowners are trying to sell large family type houses and the market just isn’t there anymore. Bought for $750k. Priced at $550k but still overpriced (no upgrades, old kitchens etc.) There have been some good foreclosure deals. You can get a deal. I saw a renovated house on a 1.5 acre lot, in the ground pool, wraparound porch, new kitchen and baths for just $450k. Was like 3500 square feet.
Agree with Laura; the buildings with curb cuts, including this one and the McDonalds, don’t make for a pleasant stroll and ought to be re-developed. In any case, this building is inappropriate for its surroundings in a number of ways.
On the other hand, Wiener’s Circle is one of my favorite Chicago-style dogs in town.
Those are some cheap deals indeed chibuilder but I’m wondering more about aging chicago highrises. It’s one thing to plow down an abandoned home on the south side. What do you do when the cost of upkeep for and repair for a highrise like the one shown here doesn’t justify it’s existence? What are the units worth then?
“On the other hand, Wiener’s Circle is one of my favorite Chicago-style dogs in town.”
oh man, you need to get out more!
haha oh man, I bet a lot of you wouldn’t even drive your car past 1441 S. Spaulding on a hot summer day… trust me I’ve done it… once that area is like Compton, CA
“I’ve heard rumblings that Stevenson had something like 700 less students for the 2010-2011 school year, bc parents of students who graduated were unable to sell their homes (at vastly inflated bubble prices) to allow for new parents with younger children to move in.”
It’s much less than that. No doubt there are some as you describe, but an enrollment change like this is more likely due to the age distribution of the housing stock.
http://www.d125.org/about/enrollment_history.aspx
Groove, i would take the blue line areas over the brown line, the brown line is just so slow, to many stops and it just never goes that quickly. On the otherhand from avondale you are in the loop so fast.
“What about the $400/hour attorney? And you have to look at the marginal utility of that time, not just the average cost.”
isnt that time billable? 🙂 i get where your going tho.
“Never understood why people put up with it.”
i cant understand it either, but peoples ideal and priorities are different, I know mine is to live as close as i “comfortably” can to my job. make my life simpler and pleasant
“And you have to look at the marginal utility of that time, not just the average cost”
you data guys are all the same, always working to add more numbers/variables. but remember the more you add gives more areas where cherry pickers can make a valid opposing argument.
Whats the point of every buying a condo? It feels like when new they barely ever are cheaper to buy than rent and in the long-run they fall in value thru building maintenance and a need to spend big money to redecorate every 20-30 years. And they are such a commoditized product its tough to get one to sell at a premium.
The only condo I’ve seen that looks interesting is the one Clio pointed out with the nice penthouse terrace in river north. At a little cheaper price it may be worth it.
G: thanks for correcting my rumblings. My source – now proven incorrect – was a teacher in a neighboring higher end school district. She was obviously incorrect. There has been a decline since the peak of 368, although not 700, is still interesting. Teachers are well known for their ability to gossip and talk scuttlebutt, and I’ll keep that in mind next time before I post conjecture and untrue facts.
“Groove, i would take the blue line areas over the brown line, the brown line is just so slow, to many stops and it just never goes that quickly.”
agreed, which is way i say constantly if i worked in the loop i would be living in Jeff Park. Brown line is nicer but blue line (when not being worked on) is way faster.
Talk to skeptic and SquareD if they come around again, skeptic he loves avondale
“Not quite zero, but you get the idea…
Oh, and also not quite in the GZ!”
ChiBuilder,
You never got back to me on the “east” humbolt post questions 🙁
sorry forgot link
http://cribchatter.com/?p=9898#comment-123406
An acre in long grove for less than $300,000 but the taxes are $10,000
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Long-Grove/3250-Middlesax-Dr-60047/home/17652785
1960’s modernist home on 2.6 acres in Long Grove
Short sale (GASP!)
$599k
no interior pics, unfortunately.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Long-Grove/3336-Prairie-Wind-Rd-60047/home/17652233
Y’all love this one:
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Kildeer/22290-W-Maple-Ct-60047/home/17651807
Sold on 01/21/2011
$333,000 .
Here is a great opportunity to buy a unique home ready for your finishing! Who’d like to live in their own castle? This is a huge home with very unique features situated on a large lot. This is a great home for entertaining. Property is sold as is where is. No survey provided. Home will be sold only to a cash or renovation loan buyer. Tax proration at 100%, and buyer is responsible for inspections.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Kildeer/22231-W-Little-Pond-Rd-60047/home/17651793
3,000 sq ft on a lake in kildeer
1.22 acres
$9700 taxes
$299,000
I suppose this is a deal but why has it been sitting so long? 116 days
I thought this was an interesting comment from the agents notes:
“Days 1-7: Offers will not be reviewed. Days 8-12: Offers ONLY from NSP buyers, municipalities, non-profit organizations, and owner-occupants will be reviewed. Days 13+: We will consider offers from all buyers.”
Given the price, i’m surprised they care at all, I would just want this thing gone if I had the misfortune of owning it.
You guys are a little over the top with this “bad” location. Sure, this place is a small apartment that I wouldn’t want to live in, and the assessments for the building are nuts (of course, they also include water, scavenger, common insurance) and it’s hard to believe that they don’t include heat at that price as well. But this is a desirable area. If the carrying costs of $1k a month didn’t kill this place, it would be decent as a rental, but the absurd assessments kill that plan.
egads HD
first, nice staging in the 3250 middlesax dr. (treadmill in the living room and a twin bed in another… woo)
and that castle on maple ct…
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! great find
Itcaffey: I wouldn’t tear down and build from scratch because the shells of these buildings are just too good and too beautiful. It will be a long time before we ever again build places so decorative as these old places. The demolition costs would be too high in any case.
However, they will need TOTAL rehabs, clear back to the brick and concrete, to insulate them properly. The places need to be reconstructed from the shell inward, really.
You can easily restore the old floor plan and millwork, which I would- simply carefully remove the wood moldings, and take casts of fancy plasterwork, and lots of photographs. The floor plans are usually excellent and I wouldn’t want to change them, as so many rehabbers unfortunately do to old buildings, ruining them.
The hard and expensive part is rebuilding to make the place much more energy efficient, but it’s still less expensive than tearing down and building from scratch.
Wilson, where do you see that? I just looked this property up on the MLS and the agent remarks are: “SELLER REQUIRES BUYER TO OBTAIN A FREE PREQUALIFICATION LETTER FROM WELLS FARGO HOME MORTGAGE OR THE NEIGHBORHOOD ASSISTANCE CORPORATION OF AMERICA. FREE PRE-QUAL COULD BE OBTAINED AT: http://www.wfhm.com”
Also, did anyone else notice that the unit number is 705 and the square feet is 705? Is that for real?
Chris, it’s right after the pictures on the Codwell Website:
http://www.coldwellbankeronline.com/Property/PropertyDetails.aspx?PropertyID=1659722
Sean on January 28th, 2011 at 9:17 am
Whats the point of every buying a condo?
Good question. When I bought mine, Crib Chatter wasn’t around to guide me. I couldn’t afford and didn’t really want a SFH as my first home and bought into the condo as a stepping stone sales pitch. I never expected my place to increase much beyond purchase price but I didn’t think it would drop so much below.
At least I was smart enough not to use the place as an ATM and aggressively paid down my HELOC.
Don’t forget windows and heating/ac systems and especially plumbing Laura. Maybe 20 or 30 so years from now of the old unexceptional buildings on lsd around belmont will be candidates for teardown.
“Good question. When I bought mine, Crib Chatter wasn’t around to guide me. I couldn’t afford and didn’t really want a SFH as my first home and bought into the condo as a stepping stone sales pitch.”
and yet you get screwed over and are stuck, yet the “agent” that represented you just had a “tough two years” and is still shilling the snake oil. and the bankers that gave you the money just lost out on only one year of bonuses, and the regulators that were to regulate the banks just said “oops my bad”, and the bosses of our regulators (our elected government) decided that hey the banks are having a rough year lets give them some of money, which really is Icarus’s taxes.
wow when you really look at it Icarus is getting screwed more than once. and the rest go along all happy.
PS sorry icarus to use you as an example 🙁
My uncle lived in this building when it was rental in the 80’s… I was amazed when some of the units, in the same state as when he rented there, were selling for close to $300k! (At the VERY LEAST, I’d have expected a gut rehab for that price.
I live in full amenity high rise nearby, on the park, and units weren’t selling for that high w/ upgraded units sometimes on the market, stable association, etc. Even in the highest peaks of the bubble, I never could understand who exactly paid those prices. Guess my assessment of the units was correct.
Groove, Avondale is certainly an interesting neighborhood. I grew up in rogers park and know all the lake front/red line neighborhoods pretty well. But Blue line neighborhoods have always been something of a mystery to me.
Do you think once the market recovers people will start speculating on avondale again?
Wow, this sounds like the kind of comment a contrarian would observe means we’ve hit a bottom. I don’t disagree with you, but I recall when I once said the same thing — it was 1996, American Invsco was converting 70 W. Huron (see here: http://cribchatter.com/?p=6602), at the time a 1 bd. on the 9th floor was selling at $99K list price when rates were above 7%. I passed because condos had been flat-dead from 1989-1996. The market took off the very next year!! At one point condos sold for $275K in that building.
“It feels like when new they barely ever are cheaper to buy than rent and in the long-run they fall in value thru building maintenance and a need to spend big money to redecorate every 20-30 years. And they are such a commoditized product its tough to get one to sell at a premium.”
“But Blue line neighborhoods have always been something of a mystery to me.”
blue line kid here, but graffiti had me on all the lines (before they were “Called” colors)
“Do you think once the market recovers people will start speculating on avondale again?”
its hard to say but if you follow the trends and recent census data you can see where the money has been going. but who’s to say back in 95-2005 the trick was to follow the “gay’s”
my theory now is to follow the “close” public train lines but thats going to get thrown out if chicago’s (and Illinois) taxes start loosing businesseseseses
but hey im not a RE investor or a mini trump, i am just a guy who does DIY on his house waiting for the market to get better so i could sell it, so what do i know about anything
@Groove, that’s okay. Your example is fairly accurate.
You’ll know we’re at the bottom when it’s reflected in a majority of listing prices. We’re nowhere near that point.
That basement wetbar is pretty sweet; it’s probably my favorite thing about the place.
It’s very pretty (that window!), but the low deck off the master bedroom will probably turn off buyers who are concerned about security, even in Old Town.
Groove: You need the schools to follow the train lines. which is why many metra suburbs have been popular over the years. not so much with the el lines. Most yuppie parents off the blue line send their children to private schools. I ran into someone at chief o’neils a few months ago who said that they live in logan/avondale and they didn’t have the money to pay for private schools so they were moving to the nw suburbs next year. not being from the chicagoland area they happened to like that suburb and it seemed within their price range and had good schools. I asked how parents in the logan avondale area paid for these private school and she said everyone was different, but it was primarily austerity and belt tightening measures, followed by home equity loans, followed by high incomes to afford it. ONly a handful got into the magnet lottery but she said that you can be eternally hopefully.
Hum…..metra to downtown with good public schools or el to downtown with no good public schools….
“I passed because condos had been flat-dead from 1989-1996. The market took off the very next year!!”
7 years flat dead from the bursting of the tiny little bubble in the mid-80’s. And the big one is over in under 4?
A bottom isn’t barely rent-parity. the 270k prices were out of this world. I’m doing long-term cost of ownerhship calculations and can’t get the numbers to work for condos.
“Groove: You need the schools to follow the train lines. which is why many metra suburbs have been popular over the years. not so much with the el lines.”
good point, avondale doesnt have that, Jeff park does with beaubian, Oriole park does have the tops school though!!
“Most yuppie parents off the blue line send their children to private schools. ”
yes look at the cost and enrollment of queen of all saints
but your right schools need to improve too but its not the only factor, look at bucktown and wicker park their schools still suck but its priced like LP. Look at Logan Sq schools suck but its been yuppiefied.
“You need the schools to follow the train lines. which is why many metra suburbs have been popular over the years. not so much with the el lines.”
Agree with much of this. For homes that are say $800K, if someone can really afford that they can afford private (which is not to say they wouldn’t want and value a neighborhood public school). But if you income has you looking at $400K home, private is really difficult especially if you have a 2+ kids.
“I asked how parents in the logan avondale area paid for these private school and she said everyone was different, but it was primarily austerity and belt tightening measures, followed by home equity loans, followed by high incomes to afford it. ONly a handful got into the magnet lottery but she said that you can be eternally hopefully.”
I’d say a fair proportion of families we know managed to get something reasonable via testing/lottery admissions. But many, probably majority, do private. I don’t have much info on how they pay for it, but catholic school is considerably more affordable than other options.
“look at bucktown and wicker park their schools still suck but its priced like LP. Look at Logan Sq schools suck but its been yuppiefied.”
There is Pulaski, the hope of all bucktown yuppie parents.
“its hard to say but if you follow the trends and recent census data you can see where the money has been going. but who’s to say back in 95-2005 the trick was to follow the “gay’s”
my theory now is to follow the “close” public train lines but thats going to get thrown out if chicago’s (and Illinois) taxes start loosing businesseseseses”
Groove,
Uptown – follow the gays and close to transportation. Plus the bonus of a new alderman. See? Uptown is the Best.
Groove,
“Uptown – follow the gays and close to transportation. Plus the bonus of a new alderman. See? Uptown is the Best.”
IDK i really think that era is over and i mentioned a while back that my gay homies and their gay homies scooted on out to Rodgers park for some reason
That is because they hated Shiller so much.
From one of teh prior posts on this building:
“May 06, 2009 – The Building Group (http://www.BuildingGroup.com), a boutique, Chicago-based firm engaged in the management of residential, office, retail, and industrial properties, has been named the exclusive leasing and management company for Clark Place Private Residences at 2625 N. Clark Street, in Lincoln Park. This 20-story, 133-unit high-rise condo conversion is over 92% investor-owned.”
“That is because they hated Shiller so much”
maybe not as much as you 🙂
only one couple was in shiller’s ward but they splitzied to schaumburger (dont ask).
Hum.
I don’t personally hate Shiller, it her idiotic policies that bug me.
“I don’t personally hate Shiller, it her idiotic policies that bug me”
but didnt she help get you guys a target? or is that a diff ward?
let me just say I am not a fan of the building group (current) but they beat the hell out of wolin-levin (past)
“Besides decent location does this crappy place get any checkmarks on the list? I don’t think so!”
Being across the street from Weiner Circle for an endless supply of “chocolate milkshakes”? Priceless.
“can’t get the numbers to work for condos.”
If I’m not mistaken this is an American Invsco conversion. The only number you needed to work to become an owner in Invsco places was your credit score. Thats about it.
Yeah,Groove, Schiller “helped” get a Target, for which the taxpayers are paying. No big box store will locate anywhere these days without a $4M or more gift from the local taxpayers.
This Target was paid for by the $44M Wilson Yards TIF, which gave us the subsidized housing right next to it that cost over FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS PER UNIT TO BUILD.
IMO, if a business has to receive subsidies in order to come, it isn’t worth having. A post at the Uptown Update blog showed a tax bill for a homeowner living in the Wilson Yards TIF district, that showed that fully 70% of his property taxes were going into the Wilson Yards TIF.
Consider that, and consider the city’s 160 or so other TIF districts, and that more are being proposed. Do you wonder why wealthy Chicago is one of the cities considered most likely to go bankrupt in 2011? We are being bled of the money necessary to support essential municipal services like our woefully underfunded and undermanned police dept. to provide massive subsidies for Big Barn stores, at the expense of local businesses thus forced to subsidize their own destruction, and for developers at the expense of homeowners, all for the sake of something referred to as “economic development”.
Every single extant TIF or RIF in this city should be cxl’d or reversed, and the taxes being diverted returned to the city to pay for the services and urban amenities that make this city such a great place to live. Then, the $1.2B so far accumulated in the TIF “slush fund” should be applied to the 2012 budget, and further diversions of tax funds for any kind of subsidy to private purposes should be off the table.
“If I’m not mistaken this is an American Invsco conversion. ”
Close, but not quite.
NVG–son of the Invsco honcho. Same basic business plan, tho.
“but didn’t she help get you guys a target? or is that a diff ward?”
LOL. Yes, in addition to a couple hundred more low-income housing units! You guys will love this: it costs $348,000.00 to build each unit. My place is a lot nicer than those shitboxes, I’d have no problem selling it to the taxpayers for that much.
She also provided $11,5 million, for “the acquisition and rehabilitation of four buildings containing a total of 30 units of affordable multi-family rental units.” to Voice of the People. This happened earlier this month. What is that, $366,000 per unit?
I mean, that is just a huge slap in the face to taxpayers, I think I have a right to be pissed off. Does that seem fair to you guys?
(I’ll stop ranting about Shiller now…)
Great Lincoln Park location with City and Lake views! Walk to everything, restaurants, bars, grocery and boutiques all right outside your door. Don’t miss this great space at an incredible price. Public transportation is right out side the building. Full amenity building with 24 hr doorman, exercise room, sundeck, laundry, receiving room and additional storage.
thinking about that makes me angry…
You are 100% correct Laura. The mayor and his corporate buddies have raided this city for everything.
The mayor and his corporate buddies? did you see the articles where CPS is now giving breakfast, lunch, and dinners out now? Half of these kids don’t even have a father in the home, now we’re taxed to feed what these deadbeats won’t step up as men to do.
where are my babies daddies at?
“But she’s spending all my child support money on her nails, on her car, on her rent. This just ain’t right. She got a good job, she should be paying ME some money.”
“But I take care of my kids!”
“What sort of relief are you asking for in your child support motion, sir?
“I need some relief from my bills.”
“Petitioner, how did it come about that you collected child support from a man that wasn’t the father of your child?”
“Well, your honor, it was about 5 years ago, and my son asked me, ‘Mommy, who is my daddy?’ and I said to him, ‘Son, that’s a very good question.’ So I decided that my boyfriend that I was with presently was as good as any other man I started both of them that they were father and son.”
“but that wasn’t true, was it.”
“I didn’t know if it was true or not until 5 years later the results of this DNA test came back negative.”
“But Judge, Judge, I can’t pay child support, I got SIX KIDS I gotta pay for!”
(Judge practically hysterical by this point and hyperventilating) YOU HAVE A TOTAL OF 7 CHILDREN SIR, 7 CHILDREN?!!”
And my personal favorite, “Well, I thought that Mr. XXXXXXX was the father of my child and I told him to pay child support in court but the test came back negative, so I thought about it, ‘who else was I sleeping with at the time my baby was born?’ and then I remembered it was my neighbor across the way so I tracked down Mr. YYYYYYYYYYYYYY and it turns out that he was my baby daddy. He’s employed too.”
(all true stories!)
Sorry, Laura is correct, I believe it was more like $400K.
Heat via heat pumps? Huge cost for whoever would buy this…
I wonder how the reserves are – elevators cost a bundle to maintain, plus all the city requirements that have to dealt with on the exterior….
itCaffe, I haven’t forgotten the plumbing or HVAC or other mechanicals… it is still cheaper to gut and rebuild these great old places from the shell inward than to tear them down. Get a price on demolishing an immense old building sometime,and you will see why some sit abandoned till they fall down.
If it’s beautiful, it’s worth a rebuild, and it’s cheaper and “greener” than demolishing and building from scratch. In fact, a well-known St. Louis developer was going to do just that on the city’s far west end back in the late seventies, but it was more economical to gut-rehab the existing beautiful old housing stock. He stated he could not afford to build from scratch, especially considering demolition and site restoration costs.
True, some buildings will have to be torn down and should be. There are many that simply are not architectural gems, to say the least, and they are moreover not terribly well constructed and have no intrinsic beauty. I can think of about a dozen old places and a large number of ugly, outdated old houses in this neighborhood (Rogers Park) that really need to come down. Much of the stuff from the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s will get the ball sooner than later.
I guess my point is they are not all great old places and at some point they outlive their usefulness. Like you say, demolishishing them costs a fortune, yet continually repairing and updating them isn’t economical either. Everything is much more expensive to fix in a highrise than in a smaller building. Depreciating assets that eventually go to zero.
“This Target was paid for by the $44M Wilson Yards TIF, which gave us the subsidized housing right next to it that cost over FOUR HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS PER UNIT TO BUILD”
oops i guess i opened up a box there 😉
Laura and Jason (ufo) thank you the detailed info, i knew about shiller and the subsidized thang but never really looked further as its “ova dare” and not close enough to me.
but like you say laura its not just in your ward funky stuff is going on all over da city, i am a lazy poster dont want to retype so look back some of my old post of examples
now for the target not being worth the tif used, there are many points for it being a good thing, again i am a lazy poster and its friday so i wont jump into that one.
If you maintain any building properly, you don’t get the big repair expenses and the costs should stay fairly constant, it’s when things are neglected that big costs incur in repairs.
One thing the critics aren’t mentioning in the cost of subsidized housing is it’s nearly always built to higher spec than market rate housing, in other words cast iron pipe vs pvc (not a good example for Chicago, but thats the sort of upgrade is required for funding). It adds a lot in material and labor.
I live across from a cha scattered site project which is both more attractive and better taken care of than the 500k townhouses two houses over which are built from the same materials and at about the same time (mid/late 60’s). Low income housing isn’t always a problem, despite perceptions.
“Low income housing isn’t always a problem, despite perceptions.”
I think peoples aversion to living near low income housing has more to do with living near the inhabitants of said housing and not the physical structures themselves.
Groove: A number of parish families have left Queen of All Saints school over recent years, some to opt for Lincolnwood schools and some for Mary of the Woods or Sacred Heart; high degree of parent dissatisfaction and ineffectual teaching, coupled with pastor’s disinterest in solving school’s administrative problems. Check it out before recommending/relying on QAS as public school alternate.
Bob, “I think peoples aversion to living near low income housing has more to do with living near the inhabitants of said housing and not the physical structures themselves.”
Although many buildings that turn into low income go into utter disrepair shortly afterwards. Think of all the section 8 housing in uptown, alot of it used to be beautiful buildings.
This may surprise you bob, but my block welcomed the low income housing (it replaced a large, decrepit house) and the tenants have never been a problem and it’s proximity certainly haven’t hurt property values.
Nd, I guess it depends on whats the alternative. An abandoned home thats occupied by vagrants is certainly less attractive than a new building occupied by low income seniors in its place.
I think you are also referring to a very small amount of low income housing, not entire large 50+ unit buildings.
It’s a small building, but is occupied by families, not seniors.
I had looked at this unit once they dropped the price to 75, but the numbers just dont work out in terms of getting a good rental return. I’ve been really curious about places on clark near diversey since they are putting the T Joes over there and I think that will help alot with value.
I think for me the place would need to sell at 55 to make sense. 1 bedrooms in this area just dont go for that.
This building should be leveled. Horrendous.
“I live across from a cha scattered site project which is both more attractive and better taken care of than the 500k townhouses two houses over which are built from the same materials and at about the same time (mid/late 60’s). Low income housing isn’t always a problem, despite perceptions.”
Agree, we have a few CHA units (a small number) in our condo building. They seem to be inhabited by elderly. No issues with residents and CHA pays assessments just like every other condo (including any special assessment) so no deterioation in property. Don’t see how it really lowers values.
“We are being bled of the money necessary to support essential municipal services like our woefully underfunded and undermanned police dept. to provide massive subsidies for Big Barn stores, at the expense of local businesses thus forced to subsidize their own destruction, and for developers at the expense of homeowners, all for the sake of something referred to as “economic development”.”
Laura:
What about the Apple store at North/Clybourn? TIF? From what I understand, Apple paid the city and reno’d the El station and that triangle to come into town.
Schiller’s bribe for an Uptown Target I get. But what about places like that Apple? Was it TIF? I’m not sure.
I’d like to know about that Apple deal at North & Clybourne. I really have no idea about how it was financed, but it would be interesting to discover. It would give me great pleasure to see a business like Apple actually invest their own money in the infrastructure they feel is necessary to make their stores work, because that means that they think the city is worth investing in.
Usually, these days, it’s the other way around. In many parts of the country, spurs off highways have been built just to accommodate a new Walmart that also received a direct multi-million dollar subsidy. The sick thing about this is that towns and cities are engaged in this feverish race to the bottom to see who can bankrupt their town first to get a shopping mall or power center, just so Walmart or Loews or HD can extort the next suburb over for ANOTHER store just a couple of miles down the road, three years later. This results in shuttered big barns all over the place that are good for no other use, except for maybe a mega-church or a roller rink or something.
I wonder if the leaders of the extorted communities ever do a really precise computation of how much they’re spending to attract these businesses vs. how much they actually get back in taxes or jobs or new business formation. Look at the Broadway/ Lawrence TIF that brought the Uptown Border’s Bookstore on Broadway. That TIF did renovate the beautiful old building that’s covered in golden terra cotta, but the Border’s is unlikely ever to return a fraction of the subsidies it got to locate there, because the Border’s chain is fading fast and will probably fold within 3 years. I wonder if cities ever get a commitment from the people they’re subsidizing, to provide a given number of jobs paying a decent wage, or to stay for long enough to generate the taxes that are the whole point of getting them to build here.
@ Boiztwn,I don’t know, but that is an interesting thought and I think that might me a good use of TIF money.
@ HOMEDELETE: It sounds like you were in “Who’s your daddy” court!!
@ Everyone who made a comment about how there one or two subsidized housing units are fine, I agree. That works. Scattered site housing is good. You just can’t put 10 scattered site housing units on the same block.
@ Laura regarding Uptown TIFs:
See, I think big box isn’t necessarily bad as long as its not being shoehorned in to try and create a community “lightning rod” hoping for further development. I think the Uptown Borders AND Target are examples of this failed view.
That’s why I asked you about Apple at North/Clybourn, because as far as I know Apple shelled out big bucks to reno that area including the cruddy El station because they knew they’d get it back. Likewise, the flirted-about Walmart Grocer at Surf/Broadway seemed to be in that vein (?) until the world screamed about the evils of Big Box on principle. Now I expect if they really want to locate there, they’ll pay out to get it.
I guess, ultimately, I am just saying I agree with you about worthless TIFs in the vein of Wilson Yard. However, I think being anti “big box” in general is using a bit of a broad brush.
Actually, Wilson Yard appears to be quite attractive and not a “problem” to the community, at least so far. But then I’m a “romantic” who tends to think well of any building whose windows sport lots of decorations in December; it bespeaks a certain “stability” of the family within.
Ironically enough, the Borders that’s just a few blocks north of the new Target was once home to Goldblatt’s, sort of the Target of the mid-20th-century.
I hope they build more Walmarts in Chicago, and then we can watch all of the city’s union members (public and private-sector) go drive there in their non-union import cars and shop there for the lowest non-union priced goods for their own self-interest!
The child-support-court scenario is an echo of the police-lineup stories (based on fact) made famous by Nelson Algren in the 1940s. Check out “The Captain Has Bad Dreams” from the “Neon Wilderness” anthology.
I think the housing at Wilson Yards is attractive, too, and I’m sure it’s not a problem. Most of the people living there are working people or retirees.
It’s a good-looking structure and I especially appreciate the use of the beautiful, intricate terra cotta that used to adorn the little structure that used to stand there, to adorn the portal at Montrose & Broadway.
The problem, exactly, is what it costs. It is another case of bad money driving out the good, and raising the price we pay for absolutely everything.
I mean, look at the number of condos there are hidden in the foreclosure inventory, marginal places that can be had for as low as $40K, in the Uptown area, while we spent $440K per unit to build this place. For a while in early 2009, you could have bought most of the units in the failed conversion at Leland & Winthrop, which were deteriorating from being vacant, and needed work, for as low as $20K, then put about $60K into repairing them, if you had the cash on hand. We could have taken a few dozen bad condos off the market, and rehabbed them much more cheaply, but that is not how governments do things.
The taxpayers are absorbing the exorbitant cost of these units, which are so small they’d fit into my living room yet rent for almost as much. Consequently, market rents are going up to pay the property taxes, and people just above the income threshold for admittance have to pay much more, while the subsidized tenants are paying as much for their units as they would have paid for comparable market rate units before the taxes were hiked to pay for this.
Every government program designed to assist renters, home buyers, and home owners alike needs to be scrapped, to keep our housing costs down and our taxes in line. We are NOT helping the “poor” with this stuff, but instead creating more poor people. What happens to people of moderate means who finally cannot pay their property taxes? Will they get a subsidized apt. that compares to the little house they were blown out of and that they struggled for 40 years to pay for? Most of all, though, I notice that the more housing assistance we have, the more expensive housing gets and the more people are priced out of anything at all. I have never seen so many homeless people as I see now.
Why keep doing what doesn’t work and has never worked, when we can see it doesn’t work?
and while we’re at it, why do we get no interest on the money our government holds for taxes but if we are late on our payment,we get fined and pay interest?
“why do we get no interest on the money our government holds for taxes ”
Because if you are savvy enough the government won’t hold anything for taxes.
“but if we are late on our payment,we get fined and pay interest?”
You are allowed to underpay a certain percentage (I think 10) without any penalty.
The real question you should be asking is why is our tax system so complicated and why is it so easy to cheat on your taxes. Millions do and its not the bigwig high earning suits you might think.
Failed corporate subsidies work much the same. The State of Illinois gave Motorola approximately $43 million in subsidies for their new campus in Harvard. The thing was built, but I don’t think it was ever fully occupied. It all went kaput within a couple years, and the thing was a giant bust. I believe Motorola sold the site (buildings and land) for like $15 million or something. It would have been nice if the State could have recouped some of that money.
Just think how silly the whole thing was… the notion of manufacturing cell phones in exurban Chicago.
Yes, Danny, I’ve observed the number of corporate subsidies we shell out for corporations that end up failing anyway, or in any case don’t begin to return what they took.
The City of Chicago, you might remember, paid failing United Airlines $37 Million to occupy space in the largely vacant Sears Tower. UAL has 2500 employees; are any of them city residents? Will United even last long enough to pay the city that much in payroll taxes?
This is why IL taxes are going out the roof, making a generally hostile business climate for any business that isn’t subsidized. Maybe the Nippon Shayro rail car plant that is being built in Roselle to supply METRA with rail cars wouldn’t have required a $12 Million subsidy to build here if IL were a more hospitable place to do biz to begin with.
How much longer can we live by subsidizing businesses and out-of-control public spending, while collapsing the tax base that pays for it all? The ratio of taxpayer:subsidy recipient is getting awfully lopsided.
…and a big subsidy to Mitsubishi to build their plant in Bloomington (which they recently threatened to abandon).
“You are allowed to underpay a certain percentage (I think 10) without any penalty.”
Also, (very roughly speaking) if your income is going up, you’re not penalized if you basically withheld prior year taxes.
I did file an amended (or whatever the term is) return a few years after the original once, which triggered a refund. I was stunned to get interest on top of that, can’t remember if it was Fed or state.
http://www.urbanrealestate.com/search/?p=0-125000&type=atsf,de,mu&bd=2&address=5000-s-East-End&ex=1
This building is an example of one where the assessments have gotten so high that units are almost being given away. If you read other listing in the same building, this one fails to mention the unit’s share of the cost to convert to condos.
I wonder if the expenses to building such as this will ever end. I know tuck-pointing was done a few years ago (it seemed to take five years), but there is always something to be done. I remember owner of the unit I looked at (7 years ago) told me they were trying for landmark status to lower taxes.
Anyway, the building was really cool. If this unit is like the one I saw several years ago, it had a tiny maids room (used as on office) and closet toilet off the kitchen. I also remember that they had a doorman that physically opened the doors. And non-working fireplaces.
The place on East End is gorgeous, Lauren. But $1200-plus for assessments is outrageous. You are stuck with a high monthly cost even if you pay cash, and it will only go up. I’d like to see just where the money is going and if there’s any way to reduce that.
I check out other Midwestern burgs once in a while just to see how they compare, and in OH (the most economically depressed state in the country now) I saw apartments in a gorgeous Shaker Heights vintage building literally being given away, like $14,000 for a 2000 sq ft 3 bed 2 bath with herringbone parquet front to back and some of the finest millwork and architecture I’ve ever seen. But the assessment is $2000 a month. The price attests to the difficulty of making a decent living in the Cleveland area as well as the high assessments, certainly, and the stone truth is that very few people there can afford the place even as a gift.
Often, the assessments are the result of deferred maintenance over a span of decades. Many of this city’s most exclusive old buildings have corroded plumbing and 20 amp wiring that hasn’t been touched since the place was built. Did you hear of the huge bill that the Edgewater Beach Coop had a decade or so back? The building’s stucco was beginning to delaminate, if that is the term, and everything else in the building had been neglected for decades. The assessments were unrealistically low, and there was no reserve. The building got grants because of its historical status from the state, the Feds, and the city, and was still left with millions to pay for re-stucco of the building, garage work, and pool work. Very unfair to owners of other aged buildings, of course, but the owners were still left with massive assessments, like about $40K per unit on the average, and many people couldn’t come up with and had to sell very, very cheaply.
So what happens to the old buildings/high-rises eventually? No developers buy them and rehab the whole thing? Still the land in a premium location must have some value. I know in other places in the world often investors step in and say change a 6 story building to a higher one, give the owners a unit and sometimes even some of the profit of the new development and then pocket the rest.
The land has to be REALLY prime to justify tearing a sizable building down and replacing it with something denser. Trump wanted to do that with a palatial old co-op on Central Park West, a rent-controlled place where some very privileged folks were getting 4000 sq ft places with 12′ ceilings and wine cellars and fur closets for something like $1400 a month rent, in the 1980s. Dirt cheap- you paid nearly that much for a really good 3 bed 2 bath here at that time, and it wasn’t fancy. But NYC’s Central Park area is one of the fanciest nabes in the world in a city with really incredible population density, like about 104,000 people a square mile, most of whom are rather wealthy.
Maybe in the really wealthy downtown neighborhoods here, but it will take a long time and another cycle of house inflation plus an influx of people into these neighborhoods that have a lot of money. I can’t imagine it happening anytime soon in Hyde Park or Edgewater or even E. Lakeview.
ok someone please explain to me how the numbers dont work here. Lets say you are a cash investor and you buy a unit with parking in this building and upgrade it nicely all for 100k. You rent the unit with parking for 1375/mnth which is very reasonable for the area if you look around (especially for an upgraded unit). Taxes are about 320/mnth and assessments are about 500/mnth. So you net $555 per month with is 6.65% annualized. Then you get to depreciate the property 5% a year and write off expenses, so you can take home that 6.65% tax free. Not to mention you are buying the place for 6 times gross rent which by historical standards is a screaming good deal. Correct me if I’m wrong but historically 10 to 14 times gross rent is where you wanna buy and 16 to 20 times is where you wanna sell. Then factor in that rent in Chicago is increasing quickly, Crains estimates a 10% increase in 2011. Then factor in inflation from all the money printing our government is doing. I dont see how you can loose… So excluding comments like “this building is an eye sore” and “its just hideous” some please explain to me why financially this doesnt make sense.
Don M – it makes perfect sense.
do you really think so or are you being sarcastic? I’m really curious what people think because I don’t see why these are getting scooped up?
typo, i meant to say “i dont see why these *aren’t getting scooped up”
Don – I am being absolutely serious. I think the main reason people aren’t snatching these up are that serious real estate investors with money are looking for something bigger with more immediate profit taking potential (ie, rehab of a 3 -6 flat or even buying a 1million dollar condo for 600k and flipping it, etc.). This is too small an investment with not a great chance for significant immediate appreciation. That being said, it would be a great place for someone to invest if they only had a small amount of money to invest AND they didn’t need to access that money for awhile. Things to watch out for, though, in this particular unit would be the number of impending foreclosures (not only impacts sales prices but also assessments, reserves (those special assessments could be murder), and types of residents already living there…
“Then factor in that rent in Chicago is increasing quickly, Crains estimates a 10% increase in 2011.”
Crain’s is wrong.
thanks Clio. Points well taken. Just curious here but how long do you think “awhile” is in this building before we see appreciation? 5 years? Also i considered the foreclosure and short sale effects on assessments but when you get strong buyers in at 90k and 100k if the association did a special of 5k per unit it would be easily affordable for these new buyers and would raise over 600k for the building. Seems like that could solve any reserve or revenue issues and still not really affect anyones cost basis. One other thing I am considering is that they can probably get a nice reduction in property taxes with units selling this cheap. I heard they already got a 20% reduction this year. Interested to hear your thoughts.
Boiztwn,
why is crains wrong and what data do you have that they dont?
developers are building rental buildings all over the city to keep up with rental demand. Makes sense to me, a lot of the folks being foreclosed on no longer have the credit or cash to buy and those that do are afraid to buy. It’s not ridiculous to think they would all be looking to rent….
Appreciation is so location and building specific – with this building, I would suspect lower appreciation (1-3%/year starting in 2012).
In terms of the “strong buyers” – you can’t count on this – remember, the units are priced very low and some “weak buyers” could also be buying here. Also, many investors often fight special assessments (as it cuts into their profit). Additionally, many existing residents may have problems paying. 5k may not be much to you or an investor, but is a HUGE amount to most people.
In terms of tax reduction – I think you would have a good chance of getting them lowered.
Don–
All the big “industry analysts” are pushing rosier rent prices, just as some eternal optimists are pushing a rosier sales market. If rents go crazy, sales will happen. The rental market wants to keep renters renting — not buying — so they will try to stay in line with, or undercut, the sales market.
Even your own point underscores the true reality of it: creating MORE rental units increases options and could depress the market further; it is not indicative of “demand” as there are hundreds of rental vacancies along the Lakefront alone. Rents are nowhere near 2007-2008 levels, even in the GZ.
2009-2010 resulted in a huge drop in rents, with mega-concessions offered (some S. Loop/W. Loop places were giving away as much as two months free, plus parking, to fill vacancy!). Many others slashed rents or offered one month free. Rents in non-GZ areas tumbled. Some even pro-rated rent discounts, lowering the monthly payments over the Lease term.
That said, sure, Crain’s may be able to pull a “10% increase” out of their magical hat if you’re just striking out the discounted/One+ Months Freebie rents of 09-10 and the apartment goes back on the market. Realistically? I think you MAY see a 5-7% increase as the rental market does want to trend back up, but no one knows what the rental market will be like. No one predicted the steep declines of 09-10 either.
10% increases across the board is incredibly optimistic and, from my perspective, utter wishcasting.
thx Clio thx Boiztwn. I greatly appreciate the insights.
what i take from all this then is that at these prices this building seems like a great place for a cash investor. A 6.65% return now, then a further property tax deduction per Clio’s point and increased rent per boiztwn (lets take the low end of your range at 5%). I can’t see why I wouldn’t park my money here. Banks don’t pay anything and bonds dont pay much either plus we have a huge down side risk in bond prices if rates go up. This building is basically a bond at a greatly discounted price that pays a hefty return now and that return will only increase with higher rates and inflation. I’m really considering buying a few units here and I’m just looking for a reason not to but I cant seem to find one.
Don M:
It’s a great time to buy!
http://www.realtor.org/prodser.nsf/products/E135-40?OpenDocument
“I’m really considering buying a few units here and I’m just looking for a reason not to but I cant seem to find one.”
Realistically, if this unit sells for the list price, it’s going to financially devastate large numbers of other one bedroom owners in the building, causing cascading defaults for years. It is likely already occurring. IN fact it is already happening:
1-beds pending
Sale Pending (MLS-listed)
$94,900
(last list price) 2625 N CLARK St #506
CHICAGO, IL 60614
Sale Pending (MLS-listed)
$115,000
(last list price) 2625 N CLARK #1703
CHICAGO, IL 60614
Under Contract (MLS-listed)
$90,000
(last list price) 2625 N CLARK Ave #707
CHICAGO, IL 60614
Now look at those not pending:
1 beds listed
For Sale (MLS-listed)
$299,900
(last list price) 2625 N clark St #1505
Chicago, IL 60614
For Sale (MLS-listed)
$199,000
(last list price) 2625 N CLARK Ave #1701
CHICAGO, IL 60614
For Sale (MLS-listed)
$105,000
(last list price) 2625 N CLARK St #1302
CHICAGO, IL 60614
For Sale (MLS-listed)
$113,000
(last list price) 2625 N CLARK St #1108
CHICAGO, IL 60614
This list goes on and on….
Sold on 08/27/2010
$100,000
(last list price) 2625 N CLARK St #905
CHICAGO, IL 60614
Sold on 09/16/2010
$95,000
(last list price) 2625 N CLARK St #1507
CHICAGO, IL 60614
Sold on 08/24/2010
$99,000
(last list price) 2625 N CLARK St #1601
CHICAGO, IL 60614
Sold on 01/21/2011
$90,300
(last list price) 2625 N CLARK St #804
CHICAGO, IL 60614
When you try to sell in 3/4/5 years there will be even more one bedrooms than there are today all trying to selling at $75,000, or less, and you will have difficultly selling. There’s so many foreseen and unforeseen issues buying a one-up rentals in condo building and expecting to make money in a declining real estate environment. But it appears you’ve already made up your mind.
Buy now or be priced out forever!
“When you try to sell in 3/4/5 years there will be even more one bedrooms than there are today all trying to selling at $75,000, or less, and you will have difficultly selling.”
HD – I understand that we are at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of the future of housing, but you are stating your opinion as if it were fact – it is not. In fact, there are a lot of things pointing to an increase in housing prices in the next 5-10 years:
– construction has been at a virtual standstill for the past 2 years and will continue to be slow for the next 5 years. The population is increasing. Many existing housing units will become inhabitable, etc. – translation: supply down, demand higher
– inflation – it’s coming………
– improved economy – more people will be able to afford more = higher rents= higher sales prices.
So there are enough factors to make your statements questionable, if not laughable.
it’s debates like these that make me really wish I had a crystal ball to see into the future, so we could finally call it like it will be.
“You rent the unit with parking for 1375/mnth which is very reasonable for the area if you look around (especially for an upgraded unit). ”
Don:
Seriously, only three problems:
1. No parking with this unit. So that’s more capital cost.
2. Not an upgraded unit. So that’s more capital cost.
3. The (basically) whole building is rental, so you have a lot of competition in the building.
“Seriously, only three problems:
1. No parking with this unit. So that’s more capital cost.
2. Not an upgraded unit. So that’s more capital cost.
3. The (basically) whole building is rental, so you have a lot of competition in the building.”
It doesn’t necessarily have to be this unit, I’m just looking at this building as whole. But even with this unit, if you get it for 70k you could still upgrade it and pay 20k for parking and be under 100k. as far as there rent goes, there is competition but you can easily get 1275 a month of an upgraded unit without parking. From what I’ve seen there are units that are not upgraded at all renting for 1275 now and we are talking very very old appliances and carpet
“From what I’ve seen there are units that are not upgraded at all renting for 1275 now and we are talking very very old appliances and carpet”
Gawd, people are stupid/lazy. I’m not hard tracking the rental market, but from what I see, that’s crazy. Which doesn’t mean it isn’t true, just that I don’t see why someone would pay that much to live in that building.
Are you sure that those are the effective rents, net of any incentives, etc.? And that the tenants are good credit/renting history risks? b/c those are the other issues I’d be concerned about in this sort of building. Again–not that they aren’t issues you’ve considered, just my two cents.
“From what I’ve seen there are units that are not upgraded at all renting for 1275 now and we are talking very very old appliances and carpet”
If you’re talking about a 1/1 here in that condition renting for that much, then the owner better send their renter a gift basket every month and personally wash their feet.
That rent is so so so so so wildly out of line for this area, for this type of building — especially for carpet! — that it’s insane.
~
“Are you sure that those are the effective rents, net of any incentives, etc.? And that the tenants are good credit/renting history risks? b/c those are the other issues I’d be concerned about in this sort of building.”
I’m co-signing these questions.
Also, RLTO RLTO RLTO. Private landlords can be seriously, seriously boned by this and are often ignorant to it.
I’m being completely honest about the rent. Check around, it goes from as low as 1100 to 1500 (that range accounts for upgrades and high floors vs low floors) from what I have seen then tack on an additional 150 for parking. I know it may sound surprising but if you’ve seen some of the other rental building options in that area its pretty disgusting. I’ve looked at several units in this building and it really isn’t bad at all. It’s a nice place, especially the upgraded units. plus the laundry room is brand new, they have 24 hour doormen, if I was in my early to late 20s I think it would be a great place to live. And I hear you guys implying that the location is no good but to me it seems like it’s in the heart of all the restaurants and bars and a walk away from the lake.
Don – here is the #1 reason why these are not being snapped up and why it is NOT a good idea to be a landlord:
I rented one of my houses in Hinsdale to an attorney couple in their 40s (great credit in 2007 when they started renting). They had some marital issues, stopped paying rent last spring and I wasn’t able to get them out until September. They caused damage in the 5 figures and, just when I thought it is over, I received a letter from the village of Hinsdale yesterday stating that I owe 5976.87 in unpaid water bills dating to when they first moved in. Both of these losers have left the state and left no forwarding address. Now I have to pay this damn bill, in addition to the 5 figure damages and loss of rent. I will have to sell that god damn house for nearly double what I paid for it just to break even. Even if I don’t need the frickin money – the headache and anger are just not worth it. I seriously would rather have my money under my mattress than ever be a landlord again – never ever ever ever.
“I’m being completely honest about the rent. Check around, it goes from as low as 1100 to 1500 (that range accounts for upgrades and high floors vs low floors) from what I have seen then tack on an additional 150 for parking. I know it may sound surprising but if you’ve seen some of the other rental building options in that area its pretty disgusting.”
lol no.
If you’re a Granite/SS freak-o, you can live with Group Fox at 401 Fullerton (with doorman!) at a high premium (but still vintage).
If you’re “newly remodeled” and mod, you can live with Reside at many of their properties, though they are a new company, and also high-market.
If you want elegant Pergo flooring but new kitchen cabs, you can live with BJB less than this. No doormen.
If you want good space/price ratios and vintage touches but generic kitchens, you can live with Lakeview Associates for far less than this.
If you want decent space/price ratios with unrestored vintage but generic kitchens, you can live with Realty & Mortgage.
And the less said of Cagan/Beal/Planned Property 4-plus-1 heaven (all not cheap compared to LVA or R&M), the better.
So your assertion is completely false with regard to ELP rents. Check out the varied companies’ listings and see what near $1,300/mo will get you, not to mention far less if you want to save.
I also appreciate Clio’s Come-to-Jesus moment about how renters can screw landlords (esp private ones). So true.
Clio,
You should be banished to the SLoop for your screw-up in renting to the lawyers. I bet you the wife was hot, and that’s why you rented to them.
ss – wait….. do you know them (or me?)?
I don’t know them, and I only know of you.
Clio,
I also appreciate you come to Jesus moment but that is an argument against investing in any real estate as a landlord…. which I can appreciate, it does suck sometimes. But I think there is an opportunity here…. no?
Boiztwn,
I’m curious what you do for work now that you rattled off all those buildings in such detail. But let me ask you this, assuming the units in Clark Place do rent for 1300 a month with parking included, and I do understand that you dont agree, but humor me here, is it really that bad of a deal to pay 100k for an upgraded unit with parking? I mean I understand the building is in a tough situation now but tell me why I would regret buying here 5 years from now, especially at these prices?
“Boiztwn,
I’m curious what you do for work now that you rattled off all those buildings in such detail. But let me ask you this, assuming the units in Clark Place do rent for 1300 a month with parking included, and I do understand that you dont agree, but humor me here, is it really that bad of a deal to pay 100k for an upgraded unit with parking?”
This unit DOES NOT come with parking, as has already been established. And — you got me! — I do work within “the industry” (which I’ve openly admitted on here before AND had a commenter buddy back me up on it). But I’m nor a realtard, nor do I have any horse in this race, as evinced by my big list of ELP rentals.
I just offer my own perspective as others do from their “baller” backgrounds on financing.
As far as this building, considering said perspective?
1. CC morons overestimate the rental market. Seriously, the comments on here about rentals are laughable.
2. Right on Clark and just next to Sunset (oops, Sunrise) and McDonald’s? Plus Wrightwood/Clark is a horrific light coming out of this garage and traffic does not acknowledge it.
3. No N/S views. Just E/W. MAJOR design flaw. There are plenty of high-rise skyboxes just east/north/south of here that can give you far more, even if you pay more.
This building is meeeeeeh in this area of town. Yeah, sure, it’s a fabbo deal if you’re intent on OWNING a 1/1 in 60614. Anyone saying this is a fab investment if you rent it out is off their rocker. Point.blank.period.
“And I hear you guys implying that the location is no good”
You should see a doctor about that, as I’ve made no implication about the location, just the building, which is a certifiable pit.
“I also appreciate you come to Jesus moment but that is an argument against investing in any real estate as a landlord…. which I can appreciate, it does suck sometimes. But I think there is an opportunity here…. no?”
Don – you are right – but remember that with being a landlord there is much more work involved than simply investing in stocks/bonds. A friend of mine that owns 25 properties calculated how much profit he made after he subtracted the time he spent dealing with issues (@ 50/hour) for his places and it came to much less than minimum wage. Also, your money is not liquid and you could be tied up for years. I am still gung ho on real estate – but from now on, as an investor, I am more interested in flipping and getting rid of it (after rehabbing) than being a landlord.
“A friend of mine that owns 25 properties calculated how much profit he made after he subtracted the time he spent dealing with issues (@ 50/hour) for his places and it came to much less than minimum wage. ”
I get what you’re saying there, but you do see the unreasonable mixing of concepts of profit, right?
On an hourly basis, he’s making ~$55/hour; on a profit basis, after charging (what seems a reasonable amount to me) for his time, it should be a % of investment, not a $$/hour.
Just start trading options on REIT stocks, that’s the least onerous/armchair way to RE investing for a bang.
In a decade Public Storage (PSA) has gone from $20-$30 per share to $109 yesterday. Of course it’s difficult to get 80% or 95% financing for that, but it sure beats doing all the work yourself!
“I am more interested in flipping and getting rid of it (after rehabbing) than being a landlord.”
Unit #507 was reactivated in MLS today as a short sale at 72.7K. Originally listed on 8/21/2010 at 108.5K.
Taxes: $3765
Assessments: $467/month
MLS: 07614968
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2625-N-Clark-St-60614/unit-507/home/12589655
I can’t tell whether parking is included.
Here’s a comp for you if you want to aggressively low-ball. I don’t like the building, but I guess some do.
Unit #506 sold on 2/11/2011 for 69.3K. Originally listed on 7/30/2010 for 127.9K.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Chicago/2625-N-Clark-St-60614/unit-506/home/12604882
under contract 1/31 – 3 days after it was featured on CC (coincidence?)
Hey guys,
Take a look at the taxes in this building. They have been cut materially since the last time we talked about this. Extremely attractive net rental returns now. thoughts?
All jokes aside about this property, would anyone consider this a good property to purchase and live in? I am currently renting here and my unit was foreclosed on and is now being managed by an outside management company. The apartment is actually pretty decent and is in a good location. I was considering purchasing the property since I have lived in it for a few months already, am familiar with it, know it’s in fine working order, etc. I don’t plan to live in it forever, maybe 2 – 5 years and then sell. Any thoughts?
“All jokes aside about this property, would anyone consider this a good property to purchase and live in?”
My advice- don’t buy a one bedroom to live in.
And don’t buy ANY real estate to live in only 2 to 5 years.
What do others think?
“And don’t buy ANY real estate to live in only 2 to 5 years”
I would agree with this, unless you are happy to rent it when you move on in 2-5 years. If you can buy cheap enough, live in it 2-5 years and then turn it into an investment property, it may not be SO bad.
“And don’t buy ANY real estate to live in only 2 to 5 years”
Why not exactly? I’d be a first-time home buyer so pardon my ignorance, but I’ve seen some of these condos in this building sell for between 65k and 130k. Of course I can’t predict the future, but even if I purchase the unit at 95k, isn’t it reasonable to believe it could be sold 2-5 years down the road for that same price if not more (110k, perhaps) especially given the location? If so, then at least I’d be coming out on top and at the same time not wasting money on rent. According to my calculations, my mortgage with assessments and taxes would actually be lower than my monthly rent. Thoughts?
Also, one last question. I learned a lot from this site about what happened to this building (converting from apts to condos back in 05/06). Is there a reason most used this as an investment property as opposed to actually living in? Is the neighborhood too young or something to actually live in the unit?
I don’t think the usual real estate mantras of “don’t buy a place if you plan to sell in a few years” or “don’t buy a one bed” necessarily apply here. Provided that there are no *huge* projects looming in the building that would saddle one with a massive special assessment, if I were living there and if I were happy to continue living in that unit for a few more years, I would try to (i) buy toward the lower end of the comp scale and (ii) put down as little as possible. I wouldn’t purchase the unit if I planned to sell it in a few years. Rather, I’d keep it and rent it out.
“Of course I can’t predict the future, but even if I purchase the unit at 95k, isn’t it reasonable to believe it could be sold 2-5 years down the road for that same price if not more (110k, perhaps) especially given the location? If so, then at least I’d be coming out on top and at the same time not wasting money on rent.”
espy: There are transaction costs. About 8%, to be more precise. So if you buy for $100k today and sell for $100k in 3 years, you’re going to lose money.
Real estate was never meant to be a short term proposition. It was only during the boom years with prices going up fast enough to cover the transaction costs that it suddenly became okay to live somewhere for 2 years.
Yes, but if he is saving money from what he would be paying in rent he may save enough to cover those transaction costs.
“Yes, but if he is saving money from what he would be paying in rent he may save enough to cover those transaction costs.”
People need to check out the NYT rent v. buy calculator- where you can plug in the taxes, assessments, insurance etc. It all depends on if your rent is increasing, how much money you put down, what the assessment is etc. A couple of the calculations I did have it better to rent than to buy for the first three years (and using different criteria- for 6 years.)
To me- most people don’t live in one bedrooms for more than a few years. It’s not worth buying when renting gives you so much more freedom in your 20s.
Hi All,
I’ve been reading through all the past dialogue on 2625 n clark and wanted to gauge everyone’s thoughts now that some time has passed.
– looks like the last couple of units have closed around 150k and it looks like recent rentals are nearing the 1800 per month mark.
– I would think prices will reach the mid 200K area to get in line with comps.
– assessments are a tad high but taxes are really low and prices are really low.
– Prices are really low.
Seems like there is a lot of potential upside here to me but curious to hear your thoughts.
Dave
“I’ve been reading through all the past dialogue on 2625 n clark and wanted to gauge everyone’s thoughts now that some time has passed.”
To live in there or as an investor? Because there are so many investor units I doubt anyone could get a loan.
Does anyone follow this building?
I would say either Sabrina. But for my purposes invest. Just curious if anyone can offer a reason not to. I want to consider any negative implications before I jump in.
thanks
Here’s the math as i see it.
the most recent units that closed were upgraded and sold for 150k with parking.
2012 taxes are around $1,650 per year
Assessments are in the 500’s per month for most units. So say $6,500 per year
The last rental I see on MLS was upgraded with parking on a low floor for $1,775/mnth. $21,300 per year.
Below are my attempts at a table showing Cap Rate based on the above numbers and Cap Rate vs higher prices. Seems to me that these units continue to make great sense as an investment or place to live at least up to 250k per unit. I would like to hear everyone’s thoughts as I’m guessing I’m missing something or prices would be much higher.
thanks all
CURRENT
Annual
Taxes $(1,650.00)
Assessments $(6,500.00)
Rental Income $21,300.00
Net Income $13,150.00
Price $150,000.00
Cap Rate 8.77%
FUTURE
Annual
Taxes $(1,650.00)
Assessments $(6,500.00)
Rental Income $21,300.00
Net Income $13,150.00
Price $250,000.00
Cap Rate 5.26%
The big negative implication that you seem to be missing is that it’s much harder to sell a unit like that when regular people can’t buy it, so it’s likely to have appreciation that lags the broader market.
thanks JJJ but I guess the question is, why can’t regular people buy there? If it’s financing, I’ve been told it’s available through some lenders.