Trying to Sell for Over 2 Years: A 4-Bedroom Victorian at 1918 W. Fletcher in North Center
This 4-bedroom vintage Victorian at 1918 W. Fletcher in North Center has been on and off the market since August 2008.
It has all the bells and whistles including central air and and a 2-car garage on a standard 25×125 Chicago lot.
The kitchen has stainless steel appliances and granite countertops.
The house has some of its original wood trim, a clawfoot tub in one of the bathrooms and a finished basement.
3 of the 4 bedrooms are on the second floor with the fourth in the lower level.
It is now listed for $16,000 under the 2004 purchase price.
Will this property fall all the way under the 2003 purchase price?
James Roth at The Real Estate Group LLC has the listing. See the pictures here.
1918 W. Fletcher: 4 bedrooms, 4 baths, no square footage listed, 2 car garage
- Sold in October 1994 for $139,500
- Sold in September 1997 for $340,000
- Sold in July 1999 for $469,000
- Sold in March 2003 for $647,500
- Sold in July 2004 for $815,000
- Originally listed in August 2008
- Currently listed for $799,000
- Taxes of $10,728
- Central Air
- Bedroom #1: 14×11
- Bedroom #2: 20×10
- Bedroom #3: 14×13
- Bedroom #4: 13×10 (lower level)
- Recreation room: 29×17 (lower level)
Maybe Godot will show up at one of their open houses.
This house has been sold every 3 or 4 years. Why buy a house if you’re only going to live in it for a few years? It becomes a game of musical chairs, and the current owner is stuck holding the hot potato.
Think about it, folks. Can you really see paying nearly a million clams for this ordinary little house? This is worker housing. There’s nothing in this place so special that you couldn’t do better in Lincoln Park or Lakeview.
There’s no reason for this place to sell much over the 1999 price. Incomes have not risen since 1999, and lending standards are tighter.
Jahn and a bit of a hike to the Brown Line. I’ve been in this situation before. Last year it was at 819K for 7 months without a price drop. Now it’s at 799K for 75 days. It needs to sell for 700K or less and the pricing history tells me the sellers can’t get their heads wrapped around it.
“It becomes a game of musical chairs, and the current owner is stuck holding the hot potato.”
http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/07/10/citi-chief-on-buyout-loans-were-still-dancing/
July 10, 2007
“But Mr. Prince used an interesting metaphor to describe his company’s situation as a major provider of financing for leveraged buyouts. “As long as the music is playing, you’ve got to get up and dance,” he told The Financial Times on Monday, adding, “We’re still dancing.” ”
This seller must be deaf because the music has been off for some time now.
“It needs to sell for 700K or less and the pricing history tells me the sellers can’t get their heads wrapped around it.”
C’mon Gary we know that probably isn’t it. Instead the seller was likely a middle class person who leveraged themselves to the hilt and now can’t cut the ask price enough to current market values. So you see ever so slight drops over longer periods of time which likely represent the additional equity the seller has built up.
Laura,
This thing is easily worth more than $600K. I got $550K for a much smaller house in the same area back in May. This house is probably 40% bigger and has a much better bedroom layout.
They appear to owe less than 640K.
Gary is referring to 1830 W. Oakdale which sold in May for $550,000 and which we chattered about several times.
http://cribchatter.com/?p=8718
I agree with Laura, the house is so-so and the location isn’t optimal. Gary, what makes this house worth more than $600K?
If they owe less than $640K I suspect they are trying to cover all the seller fees plus have some sort of down payment for their next home.
“what makes this house worth more than $600K?”
Well, if I can get 550K for a much smaller house, farther from the el, with a worse bedroom layout and bathroom….then this is what people are willing to pay. It’s hard to find a good SFH for under 600K in a decent area – that seems to be the holy grail of many buyers.
I like the layout of the house; I could see living in it for awhile (a space to upgrade an office like the 1MM place in LS!). But location turns me off; I’m one of the mythical folks that would buy a 600-700k place but want El access. Belmont would be the commercial stretch to shop on and not much in ways of places for food/goods.
Jahn doesn’t seem to be a draw for a school which could have been the big win (living next to it).
So, I’m out on this one. Thanks for highlighting it.
Gary, if you can find that I’m in!
In Oct ’94, I was 17 and a senior in high school and I was pushing carts and unloading dock trucks for a large national retailer for approximately $8.00 or $9.00 an hour. Over the next 16 years, I attended college, graduate school, started out at the bottom rung of my employer and worked my way up to I am now. My income increased exponentially during this time period. It took lots of hard work, lots of sacrifice and hundreds of thousand of dollars.
In Oct ’94, this house was already 82 years old and had seen a lot. It sold for $139,500.00 Over the next 16 years, the five owners updated the kitchen, put on new siding and probably performed some other maintenance. During this time period, it most just sat and did nothing. In 2007 the house sold to its current owner for $815,000.
I can say with authority that this home has appreciated in value at roughly the same rate as my earning power during the last 16 years. The owners needed to do nothing more than update the siding, open up a wall and put in a new kitchen. I on the other hand educated myself, learned a profession and put in long hours. This house just sort of sat here and got a few upgrades.
If that’s not the definition of a bubble, a California style bubble, with those type of price increases over the years, then hell, I don’t know what is.
I can justify my income if you look at what I produce. I have a difficult time justifying why this house should be worth more than 5x what it cost in 1994. IN fact, I have a difficult time justifying why this house should be worth $650k or even $550k. Yes it might sell for that today but long term….
The bubble taketh what the bubble hath given.
Good luck to all future buyers of this property…..inflation, gentrification, or upgrades can’t explain away this ginormous bubble..
Amazing how neighborhoods change in just a few decades….. 25 years ago people would have laughed their heads off at the thought of houses like this selling for $500K or more.
The interior IS very nice, I must admit.
I didn’t notice the kiddie club house next to the garage, now I’m sold! Actually, I do like the two fireplaces and the laundry room, but I want closer proximity to the El. and I cannot afford or justifiy spending over 400K for a SFH at this stage of my life.
but they’re not making any more land, and didn’t you see the granite counter tops and stainless steel appliances?!
“Good luck to all future buyers of this property…..inflation, gentrification, or upgrades can’t explain away this ginormous bubble..”
sure, it is nice and all but if you’re going to pay up to be in RV wouldn’t you want to be in the Audubon district? That would really be the only draw for me – I think Jahn is going to improve over the next few years but this price does not reflect the current reality.
I agree with Homedelete. These prices are bubblicious.
I grew up on the North Shore (surely this will draw some snarky comments) and have lived on the north side of Chicago since 1993. But please help me understand what make this average frame home, over 1 mile from the El, worth anything more than $500k?
I really don’t consider myself a suburban person (other than spending my youth there), but one has to seriously consider moving to a beautiful brick colonial in Wilmette if one is in the position to pay $800k for a home, and $10k annually in taxes.
The expectation of today’s sellers sometimes make me laugh out loud. I guess I’ll continue to rent my beautiful 3 BR apartment in the Bell School District for $1395. And, if anyone cares, there are several beautiful 2/3 BR apartments (in 2 flats) in my ‘hood for for less than $1500 per month. No $160,000 down payment required, no $4000 monthly nut, no maintenence, no finding a “greater fool” when you need to sell, and….a better neighborhood with better schools!
Maybe I’ll rent for life at this rate, and continue to purchase gold and silver with all the free cashflow I have from renting well.
ummm anyone going to touch on the giant elephant in the room?
for some reason nobody wants to live here more than 2 years, WHY?????
this is not a 1br loft its a 4br single family home, why such a crazy short turnover.
for me that would be a huge red flag and i wouldnt even consider the place and wouldnt waste my time with a showing.
would you marry a girl/guy with this frequency % of turn over?
What is this obsession that everyone has with the El? I know that it is a great means of transport but – I hate to break it to everyone – most people DON’T use it. Also, once you get into this price range, most people have and use cars. In addition, not everyone works close to the El or downtown.
Also, what drives real estate prices is demand. I know it sounds basic, but the real estate prices need no other justification (ie, income growth rate, personal experiences with real estate have nothing to do with the individual pricing of specific homes)
Actually, if we go strictly by the logic of a house being a depreciating asset, it should be worth less than it was in 94.
But the value ultimately has everything to do with the land value/speculation, which makes your analysis a fairly moot point, even though I agree with the overall assessment.
This is what it all boils down to IMO – what is the lot worth, and how do you value the existing structure vs. tearing it down and building new? What’s the tipping point where you look at a place like this and say (making up numbers) “lot is worth $300K, and since it would cost me $500K to build new, so if it’s updated, I’d pay xxx”?
The whole town was built on speculation after the fire by east coaster and London bankers – we’re never going to have a rational market.
“In Oct ‘94, this house was already 82 years old and had seen a lot. It sold for $139,500.00 Over the next 16 years, the five owners updated the kitchen, put on new siding and probably performed some other maintenance. During this time period, it most just sat and did nothing. In 2007 the house sold to its current owner for $815,000.
I can say with authority that this home has appreciated in value at roughly the same rate as my earning power during the last 16 years. The owners needed to do nothing more than update the siding, open up a wall and put in a new kitchen. I on the other hand educated myself, learned a profession and put in long hours. This house just sort of sat here and got a few upgrades.
If that’s not the definition of a bubble, a California style bubble, with those type of price increases over the years, then hell, I don’t know what is. “
hah, clio & bob are together again on a!
Clio: I have a car. It’s great. I use the el to get to work each day that I’m in Chicago, and for random events in the loop. As I’m off the blue line I randomly take it home from O’hare as it usually beats rush hour traffic in.
Where the use of the el breaks down is when your residence gets past your own personal comfort walking radius (for groove that’s a block for anon that’s ~1 mile uphill both ways).
For me, again personally, if the value prop for the burbs tilted too much I’d pay a premium to live in walkable distance to a Metra for similar use.
“What is this obsession that everyone has with the El? I know that it is a great means of transport but – I hate to break it to everyone – most people DON’T use it. Also, once you get into this price range, most people have and use cars. In addition, not everyone works close to the El or downtown.”
Welcome to cribchatter, clio, where a majority of regulars have a fixed rail fetish. (And also a strong aversion to buses, cars, etc). For as much as they’re willing to overpay on RE to live close to an El stop they could probably cab it their whole career.
Although the intellectual discussion about how real estate pricing SHOULD work is very interesting, that is NOT the way that is DOES work. Again, it is very simple, supply vs. demand – no need for fancy calculations.
I can show you SO many examples of houses that don’t fit everyone’s analysis (land value, tear down value, new construction value etc.).
For some people part of the appeal of living in the city is not being car dependent. Proximity to the El makes such a lifestyle choice more convenient.
“What is this obsession that everyone has with the El?”
“Again, it is very simple, supply vs. demand – no need for fancy calculations. ”
Obviously if it has been listed for over two years with no biters there isn’t sufficient demand. So all of these calculations are speculation into trying to figure out exactly WHY there isn’t sufficient demand.
“Proximity to the El makes such a lifestyle choice more convenient.”
Yeah and a bus is a pretty good substitute: it, like the El, moves you from one place to another! But not in the eyes of most CC regulars because they couldn’t tell their friends back in Iowa that they’re taking the bus. That sounds too…plain.
I agree with TB that it just makes a ton more sense financially to rent in an area like this than to buy. However, if you’re going out to the burbs, buying starts to become a far more logical financial decision.
re: The EL….I live in West Lakeview in a SFH two blocks from a an EL stop, every single one of my neighbors and I take the EL to work each and everyday and this is a street where no home goes for under $700 (yes even in this market). Oh, actually there are a couple people who bike to work, but no drivers. When we bought our place 12 years ago I would not even look at places that were further than 3 blocks from an EL stop.
Trudi WHAS HAPPENIN’?
WLV is a nice neighborhood indeed. I see a two-flat in WLV listed for 540k, but its a teardown.
In reality though if TB and my friends (who are renting a 3+den, 1.5ba in WLV) are renting for 1,400/month this should tell you where RE values are headed. You seem to be anchored to bubble prices like they’re here to stay. I’m guessing not.
Even assuming the lot is worth 300k is this really a 500k structure? I’m guessing not. It looks like a 200k-ish structure to me.
the problem with a suburbanite assuming he knows exactly how every resident of the city lives:
“What is this obsession that everyone has with the El?”
I will not drive from the loop to O’Hare during the day, I just won’t – won’t even cab it. I find it frustrating to sit in traffic on the city streets and don’t like paying exorbanent garage fees so I will likely not drive to work downtown. Every time CTA budget cuts happen everyone on an express bus route is terrorized over the idea “their” bus is on the chopping block – really, I used to live at Hampden and Diversey – do not screw with the 154 or whatever it is…
Some people (I) make a conscious decision to live in the city and the access to public transportation is huge for me. You can approximate that in the burbs by living walking distance to the Metra but for some reason the idea of an once per hour train off peak chafes me. Not to mention the fact that you can’t easily run errands or meet up with friends or avoid a DUI without it. And don’t start with cabs – in this area you are liekly to spend a minute or two trying to hail one. They’re less than plentiful.
man I suck at posting. “together again on agreeing on a point! (el usage).
The el or metra (if you work in the right parts of the loop) are easier/faster and definitely cheaper than driving daily. A quick google search shows a 646k daily ridership on the el (obviously doesn’t have it broken down by income level).
I’ll stop rambling. Maybe I’m weird in my love of public trans but I don’t think I’m too far off. I don’t like driving to and from work.
“and this is a street where no home goes for under $700 (yes even in this market).”
“When we bought our place 12 years ago”
Trudi how many homes are actually going for over $700,000 where you live? I am curious. You can believe your home is worth anything and that’s perfectly okay unless you need/want to sell it.
3122 N Paulina recently sold for 605k, in 2/10.
3442 N Paulina recently sold for 365k, in 1/10 (Zestimate of 606.5k! Go Zillow!).
3625 N Ravenswood recently sold for 300k, in 12/09 (Zestimate of 475k! Go Zillow!).
Trudi, these examples are, undoubtedly, the facts of life.
“What is this obsession that everyone has with the El?”
clio you should have stopped there.
but if i worked in the loop i would live in my comfort zone of a L stop (apparently you guys think a block is too far for me) i would live in jeff park by the stop and use that el to its fullest.
i dont think it matters your income level if you take the train or not, what matters is your tolerance level of traffic and other drivers.
there was a day when groove had a car but didnt drive and life centered around the trains and buses but that was only because my goal was to get my “tag” up.
I hate being on the road because it’s filled with other drivers. At any given time approximately 20-25% of the drivers around you have no car insurance. In some neighborhoods, CPD estimates that 75% of drivers on the at any given time have no valid drivers license or insurance. Those who are insured generally have no more than a $20,000 substandard insurance policy.
I came across an accident the other day: a four car accident on 90/94 directly west of down town, near madison. Traffic was slowing down and Car 1 failed to stop in time and slammed into the car 2 in front of him. Car two slammed into car 3 in front of him and car 3 rear ended car four.
Car four takes off like a bat out of hell, presumably because the car was stolen, no license or no insurance. the CPD shows up and tickets car 1 and car 3 for having no insurance. Only car 2, my client, had insurance, and that was a $20k state farm policy.
why do I tell this story?
because it’s situations like this that I avoid being on the road at all costs. it’s dangerous out there, and there are ignornant, poor and uninsured people with are driving illegal and don’t care. they drive like they don’t care either, cause accidents and then take off.
I’ll take public transportation any chance I can get.
“Maybe I’m weird in my love of public trans but I don’t think I’m too far off. I don’t like driving to and from work.”
I don’t either but I take this magical thing called the bus.
Re: El vs. Bus: The time it takes to get from point A to point B is pretty much fixed on the el. Bus travel times are traffic-dependent. I use both (depending on where I’m going), but for a daily commute, I vastly prefer the el, and make my RE decisions accordingly.
Oh and by the way: yesterday, 5 am, four blocks to the west.
Alert issued after 4 robbed in Lakeview home invasion
October 8, 2010 4:01 AM
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/10/4-robbed-in-lakeview-home-invasion.html
Police have issued an alert after four people were bound and robbed during a home invasion in the Lakeview neighborhood, police said.
About 5 a.m., three unknown robbers entered a home on the 1300 block of West Barry Avenue through an unlocked window and restrained three men and a woman in their early 20s, said Chicago Police News Affairs Sgt. Antoinette Ursitti.
One of the male victims was struck in the face with an unknown object and had minor cuts, Ursitti said. Various items, including electronics, were taken from the home.
Police have released an alert, warning North Side residents of other recent burglaries and home invasions and advised people to keep their windows secure.
Don’t forget other GZ violence lately: the four men robbed at gunpoint in Wicker Park last night. One was pistol whipped and one was shot in the leg.
http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2010/10/4-men-from-indiana-robbed-in-wicker-park.html
Them Pookies must be watching them hip-hop vids again..
I am starting to think that if this stuff continues through the winter the one naysayer on here who said GZ gentrification is going to essentially disappear overnight might be onto something.
pass
Park Ridge: $679,000 and walking distance to the Metra.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/PARK-RIDGE/409-S-FAIRFIELD-60068/home/12585681
number of recent home invasions in park ridge? 0
I like OIP mode HomeDelete better.
Re these home invasions… very scary, and that’s why I like condos so much. It is really hard to secure a SF home. I see suburban houses backing up to the tollway with no fences and with french doors to a deck, and think, why don’t they just put up a sign that says COME ON IN.
Any place I live must be on the second floor or above (preferably FAR above), have no windows over landings or staircases, and have heavy solid core doors with no window-panes in them, and have drop-bolt locks. The lobby should be locked and preferably the courtyard, too.
“Park Ridge: $679,000 and walking distance to the Metra.”
“number of recent home invasions in park ridge? 0”
Also you can send your kids to a nice public school in Park Ridge. Note the demographics of the people robbed in the home invasion: young 20-somethings. They aren’t going to live in Park Ridge because there’s no nightlife.
Somewhere along the line during the bubble people confused this sort of city living lifestyle with family living. Thats why you have 800k list prices in NorthCostco even though the vast majority of residents or potential residents can’t make it work, financially or practically, with the traditional life phases of raising a family.
These ask prices are nothing more than baby boomers hopeful they will get a bailout near the end of their careers to finance their retirement.
“if you’re scared go buy a dog!!!!”
-Stacey King
Laura, you’re not safe in a condo either. not even in park ridge:
http://www.pioneerlocal.com/parkridge/news/2732788,park-ridge-rape-092310-s1.article
September 21, 2010
By JENNIFER JOHNSON jjohnson@pioneerlocal.com
Cook County Sheriff’s Police were investigating a report of a home invasion and sexual assault at unincorporated Maine Township’s Bay Colony condominium complex.
Deputy Cmdr. Anthony Brzezniak said a 32-year-old woman reported that about 5 p.m. Sept. 15 a man she did not know entered her condo through an unlocked patio door and pointed a gun at her.
The man then allegedly raped the victim before fleeing the residence through the patio door he had entered, Brzezniak said.
The incident, which occurred on the 9400 block of Bay Colony, remained under investigation, Brzezniak said.
Bob, there’s nothing wrong with the bus much of the time, but it’s just not predictable & dependable the way the train is.
If I were to take the bus to get downtown, I’d have to transfer at least once and it would take an hour, easy. Blue line? 30 min. And there’s no bus that takes me to O’Hare, etc., etc.
What’s really the problem with the bus is that it has to use the streets all the other traffic does. That and many of them have IMO too many stops, which means the bus moves at a crawl.
“What is this obsession that everyone has with the El?”
“over 1 mile from the El”
It’s .6 miles to the Paulina stop. So stop being ridiculous.
bus is actually more predictable than the el thanks to the bustracker… you can hide inside and wait for a bus while its super crappy or cold out (or both)
“Even assuming the lot is worth 300k is this really a 500k structure? I’m guessing not. It looks like a 200k-ish structure to me.”
Depends on the hidden deferred maintenance/replacement. Looks to be in the 2500-3000 sf range. Having that built new would cost somewhere b/t ~$325k and $500k. Of course, then you’d have a brand new house, so that would be worth more than this place, even if everything were recently updated (which we all know isn’t true).
But, there is *NO*WAY* to replace a house of this size as a one off for $200k in construction costs, especially in the city. (maybe you could get something similarly sized built in plainfield as part of a multi-house development project to under $75 psf, but I doubt that, too)
Hey you guys got me thinking… right now we live in a 2 bed (+den & sunroom)/2 bath which we absolutely LOVE in a fantastic area. It is almost paid off and we would like to, ideally, keep it as a rental and move to a SFH in a better school district (already have 1 kiddo and want at least another) then move back when we are empty nesters. Thing is without selling it would be difficult financially to do so, and taxes in the good school districts are KILLER. Soo… rent? Why have we never thought of this? I think because we are seeing prices so low sf homes in the city that we thought we could never afford, plus we really like the idea of a house of our own. I guess we’ll have to look at our finances in a few years when school really becomes an issue, but if what you guys are saying is true about rents on 3 beds under $2k then maybe we’ll look into it!
“four blocks to the west”
That’s be east. And 6 blocks, as 19-13 = 6.
“the problem with a suburbanite assuming he knows exactly how every resident of the city lives:”
I also live in the city – and most of my friends (actually all of them) live there. again, I’m not saying that I am the norm, but there is a HUGE contingent of people out there that don’t use the El/public transportation.
“number of recent home invasions in park ridge? 0”
Technically correct, but Bay Colony is awfully close to Park Ridge:
“September 21, 2010 … Cook County Sheriff’s Police were investigating a report of a home invasion and sexual assault at unincorporated Maine Township’s Bay Colony condominium complex. ”
http://www.pioneerlocal.com/parkridge/news/2732788,park-ridge-rape-092310-s1.article
clio did you catch obama across the street (walton) last night? jammed up all of n mich ave to pum up alexi giannoulias
“the one naysayer on here who said GZ gentrification is going to essentially disappear overnight might be onto something.”
Were he just saying it’s going to stop, he wouldn’t get so much push back; he’s predicting another round of “white flight” emptying the city of basically all yups within 5 years.
“That and many of them have IMO too many stops, which means the bus moves at a crawl. ”
The places where there are 4 stops in 2 blocks are unbelievable. Stops need to be 1/4 mile apart, except where they intersect other transit lines.
“he’s predicting another round of “white flight” emptying the city of basically all yups within 5 years.”
I don’t think you would need all of them to leave. I think even if 20% of them left it would have a significant negative impact on RE valuations (as RE prices are set at the margin).
There’s always going to be a large supply of yup transplants moving to the city for the foreseeable future, baring a doomsday scenario. The issue is the future flocks might be smaller than in the past due to a variety of issues. IE: perceived lack of safety, lack of jobs, etc.
not quite sure what the 13 is referring to – but this is 2 standard city blocks west of Paulina, and a hair over 2 standard city blocks south of Roscoe. so just over a half-mile, but in January, that ain’t a fun walk in the morning.
“That’s be east. And 6 blocks, as 19-13 = 6.”
btw, I love bus-tracker – but bus-tracker doesn’t actually help the bus move efficiently. So I know a bus is coming in 10 minutes. Cool, but if it still takes an eternity to go a few miles on a busy weekend day when there’s lots of events and street festivals, that doesn’t help much.
Amen!
I will give the CTA some credit, they seem to have at least gotten rid of the superfluous stop that was on Belmont just west of Elston. That was the epitome of stupidity, having stops on both sides of the intersection.
“The places where there are 4 stops in 2 blocks are unbelievable. Stops need to be 1/4 mile apart, except where they intersect other transit lines.”
“I don’t think you would need all of them to leave. I think even if 20% of them left it would have a significant negative impact on RE valuations (as RE prices are set at the margin).”
Again, if that’s what he’s predicting, he’s being *very* unclear.
Yes, if 20% of the current city-dwelling, property-owning yups decamp for the ‘burbs, it will lead to lower housing prices. Are you actually predicting that will happen? Or just saying “if/then”, which is hardly an insight, and such basic supply/demand that I doubt anyone here could reasonably disagree.
“Are you actually predicting that will happen? ”
Yes. At least among the set with significant purchasing power (26yr olds+).
How does the significant purchasing power set get there? By starting off their careers and working to get there. Thing is, the number of entry level jobs is much lower than in times past, (and the overall level of jobs too). Future cohorts of this set are guaranteed to be much smaller than past ones.
“not quite sure what the 13 is referring to – but this is 2 standard city blocks west of Paulina, and a hair over 2 standard city blocks south of Roscoe. so just over a half-mile, but in January, that ain’t a fun walk in the morning.”
Response to HD saying that the Home Invasion was “4” blocks “west” of here. When it was 6 blocks east.
As to the January walk, (1) people I know who live near here will drive, drop kids at school and park within a block of the stop, (2) it’s really only bad a few days–when windy and/or below zero and right after a snow, when half the sidewalks aren’t shoveled (esp. on that route, as there isn’t a reasonable biz strip walk).
“I will give the CTA some credit, they seem to have at least gotten rid of the superfluous stop that was on Belmont just west of Elston. That was the epitome of stupidity, having stops on both sides of the intersection.”
IPR around the Brown Line is absurd, too: Ashland, Paulina/Hermitage, Ravenswood, Brown Line, Wolcott, Damen. 6 stops where you might justify 4.
there are always a new crop of new people moving from the hitherlands to the big city but given that they are mostly young and burdened with college debt they’re not the saviors of GZ real estate as they might seem.
“How does the significant purchasing power set get there? By starting off their careers and working to get there. Thing is, the number of entry level jobs is much lower than in times past, (and the overall level of jobs too). Future cohorts of this set are guaranteed to be much smaller than past ones.”
That’s not what I was asking. I was asking about current property owners, not potential replacements. And I was pretty clear about the phrasing.
“they’re not the saviors of GZ real estate as they might seem.”
Again:
I’m not talking about pricing or anything of the sort, I am talking about whether or not Bob (and, apparently, you), are predicting “white flight” on a major scale in the next 5 years.
Since neither of you are so dense that you missed that was the question, yet you respond in nonsequitor, I assume not, but, for some reason, keep asking for a straight answer.
“. I was asking about current property owners, not potential replacements. ”
They’re even more fvcked (sorry to inform you). Cuz they got there largely but the RE ponzi tradeup scheme. We’ll see how well that works out for the finance’s of this seller who purchased in 2008, right before Lehman (LOL).
At least its going to be them taking the hit and not the bank.
yes, anon(tfo), 6 blocks to the east, not four blocks to the west. i was wrong on direction and difference but it doesn’t change the proximity. I meant to type that the fletcher property was four blocks to the west, but it didn’t come out that way.
you all will get OIP HD back when homes like this are priced appropriately and in a price range that’s more accessible to the next generation of home buyers who wish to purchase.
this house has been around since 1912, 98 years, presumably occupied by local residents and families all this time, and only in the last decade and a half has buying this particular home become out of the price range for most of the city’s population.
I mean think about that for a second… only in the last dozen or so years of the 98 years since this house has been built has it been out of the price range for most of the city’s residents.
No “massive” white flight, because a lot of the current property owners that are underwater or don’t want to take huge losses on their bubble purchases are by and large stuck. And this segment I think would be the most susceptible to white flight as they have no neighborhood roots, having moved here relatively recently.
“clio did you catch obama across the street (walton) last night? jammed up all of n mich ave to pum up alexi giannoulias”
I stayed in the burbs last night – was he at the Drake?
there wont be white people flying cause you need to sell to move!!!
“only in the last dozen or so years of the 98 years since this house has been built has it been out of the price range for most of the city’s residents.”
Be serious. (1) you don’t know what it did/would have sold for at any point between 1912 and 1994, tho I would agree we can specualte pretty well about the post-ww2 period; (2) The majority of city residents couldn’t “afford it” at $205k ($140k + cpi-inflation); (3) point 2 was more true in the 20s/30s than it is today.
Also, no matter what else, it’s a nicer house (both in absolute and relative terms) now that it was in 1994 or any time prior to that.
All that said, $650k is probably about right, right now (barring, as always, any hidden defects), and $800k is dreaming. The school thing is a real killer.
Bob,
Serious question. What’s your bus commute like? Door to door?
I used to take the bus sometimes when I lived in RN, sometime cab, sometimes walked. From Logan/Bucktown, it seems utterly inferior to El. Even if I had a place with great express bus or something, I’d be worried about the route going away or changing.
Also, was curious about comments above on rentals. Saw this place. If it’s a SFH, seems like a good deal.
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/apa/1985587920.html
I miss New York where everyone simply understands the value of public transportation, no matter how much money one claims to have. And, where people don’t talk about how much money they have, but how much they have to spend to live there in a way that says, “We’re all in this together.” And, where all the schools are bad enough or children have to interview for them so there is fluidity, so conversely there are many good neighborhoods. And, most of the architecture is average – it comes down to how many square feet you can occupy: above 500 – great!
It seems like one of the main conflicts on CC is this tension between a suburban mentality and some people who get the city- living thing. Because of the geography here, the conflict is unavoidable. If you get just the right neighborhood – you can have it all, right? Suburban convenience, your own car, your own lawn, good schools, huge grocery stores, and less crime coupled with the abundance and wealth and culture of a big city. It’s all about that spectrum of trade-offs between the two.
I just thought I’d point out some of what is going on here. Some of this conflict is brought about by approaching city living with a suburban mindset. How can you get it all? Everybody here has a different “all.” We could easily draw a grid and map out what people want and where we all fall on it and then map out the city/Chicago burbs accordingly.
Since all these comments sections seem to trend the same way, I thought I’d give a shot at a little structure, since we can easily identify where all the regulars fall in terms of what they want in a living situation.
I love the bus. I love the El. I love all public transportation. I like grit. I like people all stacked up together. I don’t even mind trash on the streets a little bit. I know if I had kids I’ve have to make sacrifices if I wanted to live in a city – either to send them to private school or figure something out. But, I LOVE city living and understand what comes with it. Surely, we can all see this and start talking about the properties again.
Even though I’ve violated that and not talked about the property here. Back to this property, the list of past sale prices was the thing that definitely took my eye on this one. It was pretty distracting.
I am in a situation where while my bus commute is only a 4 mile straight shot, door to door runs 40-45mins.
Depending on the people on it it has been as fast as 30mins or as slow as 60mins, but these are uncommon outliers.
In fact one outlier on a Friday evening where it took 80mins. Then three buses in a row came.
“Also, was curious about comments above on rentals. Saw this place. If it’s a SFH, seems like a good deal.”
Dunno, but it’s the eastern-most house on the south side of Berenice–with a good view of the outdoor space for (what will soon be) Big Bricks.
“Depending on the people on it it has been as fast as 30mins or as slow as 60mins, but these are uncommon outliers.”
Big plus on El for me over bus or even driving it predictability. There’s maybe 2-3 times this year even including the worst weather days when it’s taken 6+ minutes beyond the average time it takes. If I have a conf call first thing that I absolutely have to be on time for, I don’t have build in much extra time.
clio, yes the drake. lsd was closed for a bit too. completely empty at 6pm. all the alternative routs were hideous. biked over to cabrini to play ball, the traffic on wells, lasalle, etc was like a parking lot. spend a lot of time on the sidewalks.
my bus commute is approx 30min door to door from water tower to clark and vb. 2.6 mi i think. usually not seated til s of river. biking it takes 15mn and is much more enjoyable unless it’s sub 20, raining, or I get hit by bus.
I live almost exactly a mile from my job and it takes nearly the same time to walk as it does to take the bus (15-20 mins). I basically only take the bus when the weather is really crappy or when I don’t feel like walking.
I could walk two blocks north and hop on the brown line, but the train is ALWAYS packed to the brim and sometimes its so crowded I can’t even get on, not to mention with the additional 5 minute walk+ waiting for the train i might be able to walk to work in that time.
The bus system is pretty sweet as long as you know what lines to take. After 5 years of no car, my wife and I have become quite used to it and rather enjoy not driving and sitting in traffic all the time. If we need a car for errands we have a zip car or other rental places if we need to go a long distance. Sure as hell saves a TON of money, and gives me another excuse to not visit my lame friends out in the burbs!
http://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/apa/1985587920.html
DZ,
Agree that this seems like a good deal for someone who has school-age kids.
“I miss New York where everyone simply understands the value of public transportation, no matter how much money one claims to have.”
Chicago is VERY different than New York in terms of transportation. In New York, you have many many many more people using public transportation because of the huge cost and irritations of driving in Manhattan. Because of that, their system is better and the average client that uses the subway is a little different than in Chicago. I lived in Boston for many years and the same could be said for the trains/subway there. I had NO problem taking the green line from Brookline to anywhere I wanted to go. It was clean, safe, and efficient (much like NY). I would be a little more leary about the El (as I have taken it before and have been absolutely terrified and disgusted with what I saw). Also, when I pass the El stations, they seem a bit dirty and confusing – not very user friendly.
Regarding the home invasion story that hit the news today after the alderman put out a notice last night – there have been two within two blocks of each other in the last week. There have also been a number of other ones in the same general area in the last month in addition to a bunch of car break-ins and thefts.
What I find interesting is how much attention this sort of crime is getting. No one has been hurt, yet the media are all over it. Someone dies out of the green zone and there is very little attention.
the perps tied up the four residents and stole their stuff. That’s generally pretty rare and brazen to do something like that at 5am in a nice lakeview neigborhood. very out of the ordinary and scary. this is a big news story. it’s not like these homeowners were gang banging or dealing drugs or even like they knew the perps. these perps cased the joint, tied them up and stole their stuff. it’s stuff like this that contributed to the decay of teh city in the 50’s, 60’s and most definitely the 70’s. Too much of it and people start thinking about moving to barrington hills
“Someone dies out of the green zone and there is very little attention.”
“There have also been a number of other ones in the same general area in the last month in addition to a bunch of car break-ins and thefts. ”
Car break-ins and thefts never generate headlines in any neighborhood. In fact I couldn’t even get the CPD to return my call regarding a break-in of my car that occurred back in July.
“Someone dies out of the green zone and there is very little attention.”
Depends. When innocent kids are slain in the crossfire it most certainly gets attention. When 16yr olds involved in the drug trade are slain at 4am on a school night its more just a culling of the herd and doesn’t deserve much further attention.
Oh yeah and my car was in a lot under video surveillance when it was broken into. Shows how motivated the CPD is to actually do something to reduce these sorts of crimes. They really don’t give a sh_t and it shows–that’s what 60 years of the same party rule has done–its made them unanswerable to the people.
I hate, hate, hate to say it, but Bob’s comment as to how a major city is governed sort of rings true.
I lived in NYC under Rudy after his implementation of the “broken window theory” (along with other far more totalitarian measures). I lived in a neighborhood that had been ground zero for heroin use in this country, a very dicey stretch just a couple blocks from massive projects and far enough from the subway to have resisted gentrification; this, in a city that had been all but handed over to murderers, rapists and muggers. By 2000, the neighborhood I lived in, and pretty much anywhere one would want to go, felt safer than any major city in this country (and most mid-sized cities as well). Plenty of people protested the tactics and policies of that time, and plenty of people bemoaned the overall Disneyfication of the city, especially Times Sq. But the place was and is far, far safer than Chicago, overall.
“I would be a little more leary about the El (as I have taken it before and have been absolutely terrified and disgusted with what I saw). Also, when I pass the El stations, they seem a bit dirty and confusing – not very user friendly.”
shocking that you were terrified of the El, when was the last time you used it, 1981?
please refrain from making any more comments on chicago’s public transit system as you obviously don’t use it very much if ever. Its as stupid as me commenting on what cars are good and bad for the city as I haven’t even owned one myself in 5 years
“(along with other far more totalitarian measures). ”
We need not even another Burge. How about start with a Chief of Police that doesn’t run for cover to an SUV to flee the scene when he finds out that there was another shooting nearby at a press conference he was giving about the recent shootings in the neighborhood?
Remember, although the Chief of Police is a politically appointed position, it is still a job held by a police officer and they are not a politician.
When a bunch of police recruits ran from the scene of a crime a few years ago I heard they were sent home from the academy. But that standard doesn’t apply to the CoP in Chicago.
Its obvious to Mayor Daley loyalty to him is far and above more important than anything else, by a large margin:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/cityhall/2142373,weiss-cut-run-says-retired-cop-040610.article
I don’t know, annony. Crime in NYC peaked in 1992, and ’93 to ’94 saw a pretty steep drop. That means the decrease took place under both Dinkins and Giuliani; under two very different styles of governing. (One thing they had in common, though — they both believed in increasing the number of cops on the street.)
“(One thing they had in common, though — they both believed in increasing the number of cops on the street.)”
A far more cost effective solution would be steeper penalties for crimes. Ever hear about the multi-page rap sheets of these 20-something criminals. Even multiple felonies like carjacking, manslaughter, etc.
Maybe if they actually did a substantial amount of time for these crimes they wouldn’t recognize Chicago’s criminal justice system as the revolving door and joke that it is.
There is a HUUUGE disparity even between the way crimes are prosecuted and sentenced in the suburbs vs. the city. Suburban courts outside of Cook County don’t play around with that kinda crap.
Remember that guy who beat the crap out of that girl in the S Loop cuz she wouldn’t give him a smoke, causing extensive injuries requiring hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of surgery? Remember reading about him getting re-arrested about a year later threatening another woman in the same area ON THE VERY DAY HE GOT OUT?
We don’t need more police officers. We need better judges and more prisons. We can pay for the prisons with less welfare.
Bob, cost that out for me, will ya?
what is it, $20K a year just to house someone in prison. add on the administration costs of the court system, etc.
“We don’t need more police officers. We need better judges and more prisons. We can pay for the prisons with less welfare.”
end of the day- more police officers would actually prevent crime. and this isn’t a Chicago problem, it’s the whole country. we really need to legalize drugs and take away the inflated profit motive. common sense – just look at Prohibition and how well that worked for us.
“Maybe if they actually did a substantial amount of time for these crimes they wouldn’t recognize Chicago’s criminal justice system as the revolving door and joke that it is.”
skeptic,
I mostly agree. But upon reflection another issue is one of the key metrics for aspiring prosecutors is their conviction rate. This incentivizes them instead to seek out deals. Instead the focus should be on the cumulative years they’ve successfully.
I don’t see our society shifting towards outright legalization of narcotics anytime soon, despite what you might hear in the press. In fact just this year they banned a new substance (K2) and I think Salvia Divinorum instead.
Too many people in our society have these maternalistic instincts and believe that government should protect people from their own bad decisions. I don’t see that changing any time soon, unfortunately.
err Instead the focus should be on the cumulative years they’ve successfully sentenced.
@Lisa
‘It seems like one of the main conflicts on CC is this tension between a suburban mentality and some people who get the city- living thing.’
Well said! What you’ll find here is a holding pattern of sorts: select folks who migrated here after college in the go-go 90’s and were beaten up by the big city, and are now just waiting to get back to their familiar suburban roots the first chance they get (finding a spouce). Actually this economy will shed a lot of dead weight from the neighborhoods, so not all is lost. Can you imagine a NYr saying, in public, that the vintage rowhouse for sale in the WV is a pass beause it’s ‘narrow and dark’ and the bedrooms are ‘small’? Happens all the time here. Yep, lots of ‘Chicagoans’ prefer to live next to the mall in a gated community, and soon they will / we will get their wish.
“Can you imagine a NYr saying, in public, that the vintage rowhouse for sale in the WV is a pass beause it’s ‘narrow and dark’ and the bedrooms are ’small’? Happens all the time here.”
Okay, so we’ll use “it’s not in the West Village” as code for narrow and dark with small bedrooms.
Why would one settle for living like a NY’r when you aren’t living in NYC?
“beause it’s ‘narrow and dark’ and the bedrooms are ’small’?”
Jay,
it is dark and it is narrow, beautiful, but if you fill five bedrooms with people living there the place is tight!!! and this is coming from a TRUE chicagoan who like to drive everywhere.
“Yep, lots of ‘Chicagoans’ prefer to live next to the mall in a gated community”
““Yep, lots of ‘Chicagoans’ prefer to live next to the mall in a gated community””
hey come on lets not make this thread about clio
….because Chicago is a c-i-t-y. And like NY, Boston, SF, insert any old
c-i-t-y, there are trade offs in living standards. Some people like myself (and maybe Lisa) find narrow and dark to be a challange; I don’t know what I’d do with spacious and light. A yard to mow… WTF? Family room… come again? I don’t know how my house did it… a roof over someones head for 130 years and counting, all narrow and dark. These common gripes just don’t exist in other major metropolitan centers where friends live… they just don’t. The suburbanite as urbanite fad is vanishing, the one good thing to come out of the sub-prime pozi mess.
“These common gripes just don’t exist in other major metropolitan centers where friends live”
So, no friends in LA. And none with kids in EsEff.
Not to mention that the vampire thing is done, unless you’re a tween girl.
I agree with Jay… However, Chicago is basically a midwestern city with a bunch of suburbanites who like to play urbanite. Not saying that there aren’t a bunch of overpriced properties here, but I still think many people on here are out of touch with what it cost to live in a major city. Chicago is the cheapest of all the major cities real estate wise and the folks on CC bitch because 2/2 condos can run more than 400k in the Greenzone.
Refinancing a 2/1 that is 750 sqft w/o parking in Boston right now… Appraised at $500k. Recently financed a 2/2 in Brooklyn. 1200 sqft. $1.4 million. 2/1 in a 3 flat in San Francisco. 900sqft. $895k.
The sad thing is the salaries aren’t dramatically different in those cities.
“Refinancing a 2/1 that is 750 sqft w/o parking in Boston right now… Appraised at $500k. Recently financed a 2/2 in Brooklyn. 1200 sqft. $1.4 million. 2/1 in a 3 flat in San Francisco. 900sqft. $895k.”
Agreed that those prices are much higher than Chicago’s. However did those properties experience appreciation like the above one? 140k -> 800k over 16 years? I dunno but I’m guessing not.
Russ, doesn’t it seem odd to you that salareis are the same yet property is so much more expensive? What gives!
“““Yep, lots of ‘Chicagoans’ prefer to live next to the mall in a gated community””
hey come on lets not make this thread about clio
uhhh – I live on a gated estate – and the only mall near me (Oak Brook) is about 2 miles away!!!
“Refinancing a 2/1 that is 750 sqft w/o parking in Boston right now… Appraised at $500k. Recently financed a 2/2 in Brooklyn. 1200 sqft. $1.4 million. 2/1 in a 3 flat in San Francisco. 900sqft.
I couldn’t agree more Russ – having lived in Boston and SF (well, Atherton), I was shocked (and still am) at how low Chicago real estate prices are – all it takes to make believers out of CCers is to have them move to a major city (NY, L.A., SF, Boston, DC) – they will come back and realize that chicago is a world class city with backward country prices.
That kitchen is a disaster at $550+.
@Russ
‘I agree with Jay… However, Chicago is basically a midwestern city with a bunch of suburbanites who like to play urbanite. Not saying that there aren’t a bunch of overpriced properties here, but I still think many people on here are out of touch with what it cost to live in a major city. Chicago is the cheapest of all the major cities real estate wise and the folks on CC bitch because 2/2 condos can run more than 400k in the Greenzone.’
Exactly Russ. As I’ve see it, you have a bunch of 20 / 30 something college grads, with lots of Internet free time, who have hit the brick wall of city living. Wow, it never looked that difficult on Melrose Place! I don’t know, maybe it’s because I’m writing
this from NYC where I spend lots of time, but Chgo is a DEAL compared to other metro areas.
The thing that grates the hell out of me, is that Chgo is filled with faux urbanites unlike any other city I have visited – US or Europe. I would rather face a purse clutching Nike wearing frosted hair tourist bitching outside Oven Grinders about how small and
old the houses are in LP, than an ‘urban to the core… til the kids come’ trixie and chad who contribute nothing to the cultural and social advantages this city as afforded so many. They come, graze, bitch, then leave. Your mother has a nice warm plate of milk toast waiting for you in Naperville!
‘Not to mention that the vampire thing is done, unless you’re a tween girl.’
How ’bout one for the cheap seats anon! I expected so much more from one of the few voices of reason on CC.
Um…Jay…Chicago has more uneducated black and Mexican citizens (by far) than it does college grad GZ suburbanites. The suburbs are increasing turning black and hispanic every single day too. NYC and Manhattan in particular is home to more “transplants” than Chicago is. Go ask a bouncer there, they’ll tell you they see drivers’ licenses from every single state of the USA, far more wannabe transplants playing urbanite there. Plus NY (and Chicagoland) has MILLIONS of unsophisticated rural hicks, totally uneducated, many utterly illiterate also, who have moved there/here from impecunious backward Third World locales devoid of any cultural achievement whatsoever. Go rip on them for taking up space.
pretty sure I have seen chads and trixies on house hunters for EVERY major metro area doing the “well we’re having kids and moving out of the city for the burbs.” It’s not inherently wrong of them but keep in mind that only recently has it become widely desireable to have kinds in the city. Our national mindset has been to live downtown and have fun in youth, get serious and move to the burbs for parenthood. I don’t see this as a Chicago only phenomenon.
I’m not sure why there have been so many comments about how much cheaper it is to be in Chicago than other cities – um Duh we’re in the midwest what were you expecting? On one hand, we’re dealing with a HUGE swath of land to work with that extends north, south and west from the city that is very buildable and with suburb towns that give the chads and trixies places to go feel urban completely removed from the city. There is really no great lack of space here – I guess we can draw a supply/demand chart if you really need one. In Chicago we can be picky and it is a huge advantage over other places. A reason why I’ll live here and visit SF and NYC – I’m ungodly, out of my mind spoiled here.
“How ’bout one for the cheap seats anon! I expected so much more from one of the few voices of reason on CC.”
You expected more than a bad joke, once in a while? Sorry, I was having a bad day.
Anyway, the issue is: why accept narrow dark and small when within 250′ (or 500′ or whatever) you can have wider, bright and big for 10% more? It’s obviously a different story in Manhattan, Boston, most of EsEff.
But are you seriously contending that–given the choice at approximately the same price and in approximately the same location (ie, in Manhattan, pretty much on the same block)–you would choose narrow, dark w/ small bedrooms over wide, bright with generous bedrooms? If so, and it’s not premised on maintaining a small ecological footprint, I don’t believe you.
I love the earlier part of the thread about crime. I think we’ve safely established crime happens everywhere. Where do you move when the North Shore turns dangerous? Lake Forest?
http://www.pioneerlocal.com/winnetka/news/2740554,winnetka-attabduct-092310-s1.article
@ anon –
‘But are you seriously contending that–given the choice at approximately the same price and in approximately the same location (ie, in Manhattan, pretty much on the same block)–you would choose narrow, dark w/ small bedrooms over wide, bright with generous bedrooms? If so, and it’s not premised on maintaining a small ecological footprint, I don’t believe you.’
Naturally I would prefer wider, brighter, and more generous bedrooms than not, but the very nature of city living, in general, is anything but…. and this is an issue that a newer generation of *temporary* Chicago dwellers just don’t get – you can not have it all. I would take (and did take) narrow, dark (not so dark actually, as the Victorians were brilliant with letting natural light in), w/ small bedrooms in the best GZ neighborhood (the real LP… park, lake, abundant transportation, inspiring residential architecture… blah blah, more expensive and less space), than bigger and brighter in a b-list neighborhood… any day. When all you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail.
Now listed for $769k