Was 2016 Peak Price in Chicago? A 2-Bedroom at 201 W. Grand in River North
This 2-bedroom in Contemporaine at 201 W. Grand in River North came on the market in July 2019.
Built in 2004, it has 28 units and a parking garage. It’s not a full service building, however, and doesn’t have a doorman.
This unit has floor to ceiling wrap around windows with south and east views along with exposed concrete ceilings and hardwood floors.
The third bedroom has been converted into a master dressing room with custom finishes and built-ins for a huge master suite which also has built-in storage and an en suite bath (and was already converted in the last sale in 2016.)
The kitchen has gray cabinets with gold Waterworks fixtures, a Miele cooktop, a Subzero wine cooler and a built-in banquette, “as well as fabulous book-matched, Calacatta Gold marble.”
It has the features buyers look for including central air, washer/dryer in an actual laundry room, and 2 garage spaces are available for $30,000 each.
This unit also has a balcony which is large enough for an outdoor sofa.
Contemporaine was the hottest modern building around when it first launched in 2004. But since then, a dozen or more modern mid-rises have also been built in River North and other downtown neighborhoods.
This unit came on the market in July 2019 at the same price as the 2016 sale: at $1.1 million.
It has since been reduced and is now listed $60,000 below the 2016 price (if you buy both parking spaces) at $980,000.
Was 2016 peak prices?
Ashley Cox at d’aprile properties has the listing. See the pictures here.
Unit #502: 2 bedrooms, 3 baths, no square footage listed but in the 2016 listing it said 1800 square feet
- Sold in January 2004 for $828,000 (included 2 parking spaces)
- Sold in September 2007 for $950,000 (included 2 parking spaces)
- Sold in July 2016 for $1.1 million (included 2 parking spaces)
- Originally listed in July 2019 for $1.1 million
- Reduced
- Currently listed at $980,000 (2 parking spaces at $30,000 each)
- Assessments of $1114 a month (includes heat, a/c, exterior maintenance, scavenger)
- Taxes of $17,652
- Central Air
- Washer/dryer in the unit
- Balcony
- Bedroom #1: 17×12
- Bedroom #2: 14×11
- Walk-in-closet: 17×10
- Living room: 17×16
- Dining room: 13×13
- Kitchen: 13×9
- Breakfast room with built-in banquette: 10×7
- Laundry room: 4×7
please tell me that kitchen is not the new “in” style… gold hardware and faucets is just barfola
Even at the reduced price, it is still cheaper to rent in a newer lux building.
also they only dropped the price 60k due to the stupid parking games they are playing
Much cheaper to rent. And larger, family-sized units are particularly lagging. Too much new construction, too many unknowns (CPS chaos, budget concerns, etc.).
This property will be further reduced. Still costs as much as a decent SFH in New Trier district.
“they only dropped the price 60k due to the stupid parking games”
Unclear if the original ask included any parking, right?–if it included one, then it’s deck chairs, if it included both, then it’s a $30k increase.
Hoo boy, totally misread those numbers. Dumas, me.
Still not crystal clear that prior list included both spots, right?
I’ve always liked this building. If I were an empty nester, I’d be buying a unit like this.
It looks like the bathrooms need some updating. With all the newer boutique / high rises coming on line, the unit doesn’t have that 100% new feel probably. $1.1 is a lot of coin for a 2 bedroom…
“Still not crystal clear that prior list included both spots, right?”
The original listing (7/2019) is crystal clear – 2 parking spots are included in asking price
I’ve looked at two units in this building before.
The problem is, if you’re into / okay with the concrete and glass aesthetics, which I love ( wife does not ) , it’s architecturally very cool. However, many units have some aspect of ugly exposure into a neighboring parking lot or closeby building. When you walk outside, most people who are spending a million + do not necessarily want to have a Binny’s and Lou malnati’s right outside ( again, both things that I personally would be into).
At the end of the day, I really wanted to pull the trigger on a 3 bed in this building but my wife felt that this particular block of river north was on the ‘trashier’ side ( Her words, not mine ) – just to give you some perspective from a potential buyers perspective.
My issue with this particular unit is , 1800 square feet on this block, and for this unit, is not worth a million dollars to me. Maybe to someone else.
I will say, if I had the money / had been working for 20 more years, I would certainly have snapped up the penthouse with the zen garden. That unit was amazing.
All that being said..In current market, make this place 850-899 with a parking spot included and it’ll probably sell.
“please tell me that kitchen is not the new “in” style… gold hardware and faucets is just barfola”
Gold hardware and faucets have been in for well over a year now sonies. We’ve chattered about several of them in the last 6 months.
Many do gold hardware but still do a black faucet though. I’m expecting the gold to be “in” for the next several years as it’s only now ramping up.
Isn’t most of river north a little trashy? It’s always had the club district. Hubbard street. Even trump feels a bit trashy. Lasalle street has too much traffic.
The thing the area does have is convenience to everywhere. Basically in the middle of Chicago. You have to go to new east side streeterville or Gold Coast to get rid of that feel.
I’m not sure on the neighborhood for having kids but it’s great for busy adults.
Sean,
agreed. I think an exception is that northwest aspect along the Groupon area and where the old Montgomery ward building is…If you can afford one of the townhouse or nicer condos, that area has been consistently improving. Not sure if we can call that river north or if it’s just ‘near north’.
Those HOAs are just STUPID. Between the HOAs and the never ending tax increases… I don’t see what you really own here. And probably complete sht schools
“probably complete sht schools”
It’s Ogden.
I hear that they used to have a great principal, and that the parents are all exceedingly polite about where they park for drop off and pick-up.
One of my kids went to Ogden for a couple years. Her kindergarten teacher was getting paid $85k+benefits. I wonder what they are paying today for that job.
OIC taxes on this unit went up 34% in 2015, 9% in 2016 and 11% in 2017. Interesting.
“paid $85k+benefits. I wonder what they are paying today for that job.”
We could look up the current K teachers, but based on the old contract, it could be anywhere from $52,958 to $101,161. Plus pension pickup, and benefits, and what, if anything, they net in a raise for this year with the raise, but less the 6 missed days.
“One of my kids went to Ogden for a couple years. Her kindergarten teacher was getting paid $85k+benefits. I wonder what they are paying today for that job.”
Good.
Why is it no one says “my child goes to Hinsdale Central and his social studies teacher was making $140,000 a year plus benefits. The horror!”
They NEVER do.
Somehow it’s okay that in “rich” towns the teachers are paid good salaries but not anywhere else.
Here’s a newsflash. One of the richest men in Chicago lives across the street from Ogden. Chicago is where the money is now. The teachers should be compensated accordingly.
Teaching is the only profession where people don’t want to pay for quality. If you live in a $3 million condo, why shouldn’t your kid’s kindergarten teacher make $85,000?
Give me a break.
well if they make 85k+ benefits and are a good teacher then great, money well spent if they make 85k+ benefits and are an un-fireable tenure mooch then nah, thats not good
too bad we will never know
“We could look up the current K teachers, but based on the old contract, it could be anywhere from $52,958 to $101,161. Plus pension pickup, and benefits, and what, if anything, they net in a raise for this year with the raise, but less the 6 missed days.”
With the benefits and pension, it seems like more than decent comp. A couple that made careers at cps is clearly umc over their lifetime, no?
“A couple that made careers at cps is clearly umc over their lifetime, no?”
UMC+, for sure, bc of pension.
Now, I FULLY understand that this is the exception, but let’s use that 2 teacher couple, and assume they retired at the end of last year, age 60, with 30 years in CPS. Assume they both got MATs and complete the +45 credits to get to Lane 5 (I refuse to assume a phd for Lane 6, but 45 credits related to continuing ed isn’t unusual), and were at Step 16. Their base salaries were $99,215 each. Their pension would be $65,481.90 each (66% of final), with the 3% escalator.
How much retirement savings do you have to have for that to be the safe withdrawal amount? *Without* the escalator, retirement calculators tell me it’s about $3.5m. So $7m retirement nestegg for the couple (albeit one that they cannot access the principal of). That’s still *definitely* UMC+.
And, if they decide to teach 5 more years, and retire at 65, with 35 years in, the new contract = ~16% increase (say $115k) and the pension bumps up tot he max–75% of final, so it’s $86,250 (x2), requiring a $4.6m retirement account (x2)–this hypothetical couple would retire with *better* income (bc of escalator, and no risk of market losses) than a couple with $10m in retirement savings. $10m!!
Also, don’t forget, they have 2% taken out for their retirement, instead of 6% for social security, and their healthcare is cheaper and better than most of ours.
teaching pays, god damn
“teaching pays”
I wouldn’t want to do it for 3+ decades, but that is an awfully compelling comp structure for someone who is interested.
TRS (the pension for non-CPS teachers in IL) uses essentially the same formula. And (typically) credits for service in CPS–and given the considerably higher salaries offered to experienced teachers (esp HS) in many suburban districts, there is quite a financial incentive for CPS teachers to switch at a certain point in their careers.
considering what an equivalent education structure in the private sector will get you, you pay a huge chunk of your own benefits, especially retirement… and then add on top of that the massive amounts of days off, that really pays well… but of course its never enough thanks to the union thugs that run the city
“so it’s $86,250…requiring a $4.6m retirement account”
That’s 1.875% withdrawal at age 65. Seems super conservative. Under the vast vast majority of realized market outcomes, you’d end up with a huge amount left over. (Don’t disagree w overall point that it’s a v lucrative pension.)
As someone said before, if they are a good teacher making 85 k/year, great. Unfortunately there are a lot of crap teachers out there who were simply not great at school themselves, and just fell into the profession (i.e they never became an author, a musician, a chemist, doctor, economist, whatever it is they teach.)
Let’s also point out at 85k a year – including the summers off, holidays, vacations and other perks, that’s a lot more like making 100k a year.
I don’t know many people who have a 4 year degree in some basic topic that will ever make that kind of money. Also – it doesn’t matter if they suck at their job typically, they have to do something truly egregious to get fired.
If I started giving every other patient an infection, killed patients, and provided crap care, I’d likely be sued for millions of dollars and be fired.
If my wife lost every single lawsuit, she would be fired and wouldn’t be able to litigate anymore.
What happens to CPS teachers when they do a crappy job?
Sabrina, I agree that we shouldn’t just talk smack about CPS teachers high salaries when teachers in the suburbs are hitting almost 200k a year in some cases.
That being said – How are the students at those schools performing compared to CPS?
How much can they continue to blame class sizes, limited funds, etc. Guess what? A lot of hospitals in this city have the same problems. Do you see doctors stopping to treat their patients and going on strike? No , we continue to do our job and make do with what we have.
“I don’t know many people who have a 4 year degree in some basic topic that will ever make that kind of money. Also – it doesn’t matter if they suck at their job typically, they have to do something truly egregious to get fired.”
I don’t have the sense it’s that hard to get hired as a cps teacher. If it’s such an amazing deal, why isn’t there more labor supply? Or maybe I’m wrong about getting a cps job.
“and make do with what we have”
awww, the poor doctors…
“If I started giving every other patient an infection, killed patients, and provided crap care, I’d likely be sued for millions of dollars and be fired.”
Luckily for your profession, there are nurses. Every single time over the past decade or so that I’ve been in a hospital (and they’ve been the best ones for a particular area), including for two childbirths, an appendectomy, and a few ER visits for injuries, my non-litigator litigiousness is off the charts. In each instance, the skill and attention of nurses saved the day (and my kids), from what would have been the fault of the doctor.
“If my wife lost every single lawsuit, she would be fired and wouldn’t be able to litigate anymore.”
Lawyers, and school teachers, don’t have nurses.
“school teachers, don’t have nurses”
That’s why (CTU says) we had a Strike!!
“Luckily for your profession, there are nurses. Every single time over the past decade or so that I’ve been in a hospital (and they’ve been the best ones for a particular area), including for two childbirths, an appendectomy, and a few ER visits for injuries, my non-litigator litigiousness is off the charts. In each instance, the skill and attention of nurses saved the day (and my kids), from what would have been the fault of the doctor.”
Honestly, I don’t get heated or curse much, but get the F out of here you A-hole.
luckily, for me, who excelled at every level of my education, sacrificed years of my life in medical school and residency training, took on 100’s of thousands of dollars in debt, THERE are NURSES? – 21 year olds with 3 years of BSN classes and 2.0 gpa’s.
Are you F’ng kidding me. “The skill and attention of nurses” – do you think most nurses would even be able to anatomically locate an appendix? know what a uterus is?
What happens when that appendix bursts? your child wraps their umbilical cord around their neck? Your ER visit involves more than a flu – what, a nurse will fix it? Go right ahead.
I’m so sick of this BS. Why not just get rid of doctors altogether, so the amazing, attentive nurses can treat you.
Society is f’ng clueless.
If everyone is so resentful towards doctors, then F off. Go to a nurse practitioner for all your care. Honestly, we are getting sick of hearing your garbage.
“awww, the poor doctors…”
Cool. Why don’t you Come coil an aneurysm or block a GI bleed at 3 am when the hospital doesn’t have the supplies available. Or maybe more simply drain a abscess from someone’s gut when the right gauge needle isn’t available.
So sick of the anti-doctor rhetoric.
“Go to a nurse practitioner for all your care. Honestly, we are getting sick of hearing your garbage.”
This is happening for routine visits. My elderly mother NEVER sees her doctor. It’s only nurse practitioners unless she’s in dire straits. It’s just cheaper.
And yes, a surgical nurse can most definitely locate my appendix.
“I don’t have the sense it’s that hard to get hired as a cps teacher. If it’s such an amazing deal, why isn’t there more labor supply? Or maybe I’m wrong about getting a cps job.”
You are so wrong. I know someone who graduated 2 years ago. Grew up in the Chicago suburbs. Tried to get a teaching job anywhere in northern Illinois, including CPS.
Nothing. Nada. Even with CPS’s big yearly turnover (it loses many of its first year teachers, apparently.) Too much competition to get CPS gigs.
She moved to Arizona where they are desperate because the pay is just $30,000 a year for first year teachers. Her rent is $800 a month, so it’s not so bad. But the pay still sucks.
“How much can they continue to blame class sizes, limited funds, etc.”
They can until it is fixed. Are the suburban teachers teaching 34 kids in a class?
“Unfortunately there are a lot of crap teachers out there who were simply not great at school themselves, and just fell into the profession”
This is true of EVERY profession. Plenty of crappy doctors, Riz, whose parents “made” them go into that profession and they hate it and count the days until they can retire.
In a system as big as CPS, there are going to be good teachers and bad. But why would you ever choose CPS as a place to phone it in? I’d choose Hinsdale or the North Shore to wait until retirement. Damn. CPS is tough in many of those schools because of the problems at home.
Not everyone chooses their profession based on the pay Riz. That’s not what motivates everyone or we wouldn’t have people working as Park Rangers at Yosemite, for instance.
“but of course its never enough thanks to the union thugs that run the city”
You don’t live here anymore sonies so you might not know that they were actually fighting for more nurses and counselors in the schools and smaller class sizes. They also want more affordable housing (!) provided because that would ease stresses in the kids homes.
It’s basically stuff that most of the CPS parents I talked to over the last 3 weeks thought was worthwhile striking for. One has her kids in a school where there is NO nurse so if your kid is sick, they have no choice but for you to immediately go to the school and get them. And this was a school on the north side in an affluent area.
One school had one counselor for over 1,000 students. Totally not workable.
“I wouldn’t want to do it for 3+ decades, but that is an awfully compelling comp structure for someone who is interested.”
Good. It should.
“Cool. Why don’t you Come coil an aneurysm or block a GI bleed at 3 am when the hospital doesn’t have the supplies available. Or maybe more simply drain a abscess from someone’s gut when the right gauge needle isn’t available.
So sick of the anti-doctor rhetoric.”
Well, I wasn’t really being anti doctor (well, nonny was a bit). I was just pushing back against your self pity vis a vis how you are treated as compared with [checks notes…] cps teachers (which is also a choice you could have made). You went into what you did with, I presume, eyes wide open and made your choice, which I assume makes sense for you. No one is talking about confiscating anything for you (well, except for elizabeth warren, but that wasn’t no one was discussing that here).
“They also want more affordable housing (!) provided because that would ease stresses in the kids homes.”
there is a shitload of affordable housing in Chicago… just not in desirable neighborhoods for the most part… buying votes by putting people in overpriced public housing in posh neighborhoods is just straight up corruption and a massive waste of taxpayer money.
Doesn’t surprise me that the Maduro regime loving socialist idiot Jesse Sharkey threw that little item in with the rest of the things they were striking for. Which by the way its illegal to strike in Illinois for anything other than pay. Glad they followed the law on that one too…
you know what would really reduce stress in those homes? two parent households, with steady jobs…
“do you think most nurses would even … know what a uterus is?”
I would hope the “most” of them who are female do.
But our educational system *does* suck, and almost half the states prefer their publicly-educated women ig’nant, so it might be a close call.
“there is a shitload of affordable housing in Chicago… just not in desirable neighborhoods for the most part”
And, unfortunately, a lot of that housing stock is barely adequately maintained.
I wish that they would modify the zoning laws for affordable housing purposes, and then focus more on replacing SRO units. The CW right now (from folks working in the affordable housing space in Chicago) is that new build units cost $350k+, which means it’s about the same as market rate housing, which is *bananas*. How about we add units that are 400 sf +/-, with private bathrooms, and mini kitchens. Something noticeable better than historic SROs, but not up to ‘market’ preferences, even in the micro apartment space. Even if that is an insanely psf expensive thing to build, it’s $150k per unit, instead of $350k. I know that there is a lot of focus on family homelessness, but (1) why not also try to deal with singletons? and (2) I *hate* the way they count homeless, in order to make the problem look bigger (by the definition used currently, I spent nearly half my non-dorm-based life thru age 25 as homeless or sharing a home with a homeless person, which is patently false).
“It’s basically stuff that most of the CPS parents I talked to over the last 3 weeks thought was worthwhile striking for.”
CPS parent here: NOPE. Am very pissed, and blame CTU.
Am now very anti anything the Union (as opposed to the polity of teachers) supports. Fuck them.
“Not everyone chooses their profession based on the pay Riz. That’s not what motivates everyone or we wouldn’t have people working as Park Rangers at Yosemite”
Park Ranger salary data:
https://www.federalpay.org/employees/occupations/park-ranger
Average park ranger = $69k, with federal employee benefits, which aren’t CTU-level good, but better than most of us on teh-CC get.
That’s hella better than teaching in AZ for $30k. Of course, spend 5 year teaching in AZ, and getting a job n northern IL is a little easier–especially the suburban districts prefer to hire experienced teachers.
Funny you should ask.
“What happens when that appendix bursts?”
While attending a matinee of Aladdin at the Cadillac Palace Theatre, summer of 17, kid has acute ab pain, so off to Lurie we go. Appendix needs to come out, right away, and the doc thought it would be a good time to propose to us that we consider participating in a study involving an antibiotic treatment, rather than removal. Kid had no special risk factors for surgery, and there would be no assurances that the appendix wouldn’t have to be removed in the future, possibly under less optimal circumstances. Nevertheless, the doc, in the doc’s infinite wisdom, thought that placing that burden on parents – “do we take the risks of surgery and have it removed now, or do we risk her needing emergency surgery in the future, potentially in some remote area?” – was a super smart idea. We had it removed. I sincerely hope that other parents didn’t make the opposite choice (under circumstances similar to ours) and cave to that doctor’s pressure, only to find themselves in the mountain backcountry or a jungle in a developing nation, with an appendix about to burst. (Also, this: Me, maybe 79, at a drive-in movie with my parents. Acute ab pain, so off we go. Doc who was checking me out was brutal (I think my mom told her to take it easy), and right as the nurse had drawn my blood, the doc bumps into the nurse and the sample falls on the ground. Lucky me, about an hour later, while my parents were briefly gone getting my brother squared away for the night, another nurse comes in to draw blood yet again. They managed to get my appendix out that night without any trouble, but man did that doc leave an impression.)
“your child wraps their umbilical cord around their neck?”
Same kid. At Prentice, early 09. The cord was wrapped around her (there weren’t twins) neck AND the cord was tied in a knot. Kid was big (maybe almost 11 pounds?), coming sunny side up. Wife’s in labor about 12 hours. First anesthesiologist botches the epidural; somebody more senior comes in to do it over. Baby came out lifeless; mother in bad shape due to terrible pain/blood pressure management throughout the day. They should have done a C-section early on that day (according to at least a couple of OBs we later described the experience to), but they rejected that notion multiple times. Same nurse stayed with her for like 6 hours straight (seriously don’t think she stepped out to use the bathroom) – that’s health *care*.
This is not anti-doctor rhetoric. Those are actual first hand accounts of carelessness (or worse). Doctors are absolutely essential (I have nothing but praise for the surgeon who handled my fractured zygomatic arch 20 years ago). But the hubris and god complex that comes from all those years of school, residency and sleep deprivation does in fact have real world consequences. Or is everything in the multi-billion dollar/year med-mal world frivolous?
“They also want more affordable housing (!) provided because that would ease stresses in the kids homes.”
Per Sabrina, they can all move to Winnetka, Oak Brook, etc in a couple of years
“And, unfortunately, a lot of that housing stock is barely adequately maintained.”
—————————
A pass is a pass. Simply because it isn’t up to your standards or my standards doesn’t mean it isn’t “affordable” and counts as “housing.”
My theory is real simple: If you’re having children and you’re still renting, then you are on the wrong financial path. Keep your d**k in your pants or your legs crossed at the knees.
“If you’re having children and you’re still renting, then you are on the wrong financial path”
That’s, frankly, bizarre and presumptuous.
annonny,
I honestly don’t have the time to deal with all the nonsense you just typed. Truly , truly sad for those individual cases,
But from what you described, and at specific institutions ( which you REALLY SHOULD NOT FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE , IF TRUE, BECAUSE THEY MONITOR THE INTERNET ) – seem egregious.
If your stories are true, perhaps seek legal counsel. Until then, I’ll call BS.
‘This is true of EVERY profession. Plenty of crappy doctors, Riz, whose parents “made” them go into that profession and they hate it and count the days until they can retire.
In a system as big as CPS, there are going to be good teachers and bad. But why would you ever choose CPS as a place to phone it in? I’d choose Hinsdale or the North Shore to wait until retirement. Damn. CPS is tough in many of those schools because of the problems at home.
Not everyone chooses their profession based on the pay Riz. That’s not what motivates everyone or we wouldn’t have people working as Park Rangers at Yosemite, for instance.’
Honestly, STFU.
Not everyone chooses their profession based on pay? Aren’t you a REALTOR – THATS LITERALLY HOW YOU MAKE MONEY.
Don’t you dare judge me. You are bitter, but don’t blame those who have done better than you. Shame on you.
I mean, it’s not exactly surprising from someone whose hobby horse is the boundaries of a neighborhood he doesn’t even live in.
anon (tfo)
That’s, frankly, bizarre and presumptuous.
———————————–
Presumptuous? I agree. Bizarre? I deny that. In any event, I am also correct for the 99.9 percent of the people to whom it applies.
“If your stories are true, perhaps seek legal counsel.”
What’s the likelihood of success, if there is no permanent injury? And, anyway, he noted it was 10 years ago, with is probably outside the limitations period.
First case is really about the incentives related to pharma and research, and could be considered ethically questionable. And, Riz, you HAVE TO acknowledge that some docs do engage in ethically questionable practices when it comes to pharma and research–far from “most”, but definitely more than “none”.
2d case–I would wager that the docs in the ward could get multiple second opinions who concurred with their judgment, and that the “couple of OBs” might well change their tune in a deposition–it’s easy to agree with a social acquaintance (and, usually, *much easier*) than to attempt to be neutral, or contradict their storyline–the stakes just aren’t real enough to not say “oh, yeah, you had the right idea, that would have been my recommendation, too”. It’s not a statement of fact, it’s a friendly concurrence based on a slanted relation of a story.
Now, if Nonny had retained PI counsel, and these “couple of OBs” reviewed all the available records, etc., and said “the docs on the case MADE A MISTAKE”, rather than suggesting they would have done something different, there would be some bad juju about. But that doesn’t seem to be the case.
On another note Riz–I hope you aren’t getting the biz from a former patient. I remember Clio going off on a similar note at a time he had a patient rattling his cage. If so, that suck, and I am sorry.
“I am also correct for the 99.9 percent of the people to whom it applies.”
You mean the 99.9% you would apply it to. It is demonstrable false that only 1 in 1,000 parents who is renting instead of buying is “on the wrong financial path”. 90% might be a reasonable argument, but I’d still say “show me the data”.
I find it hilarious that people are super comfortable calling teachers incompetent mooches, but the instant the conversation turns to questioning their profession, the response is all “HOW DARE YOU, SIR!”.
We are friends with a couple who fit anon’s hypothetical – 1 teacher/guidance counselor, 1 teacher/coach, both with master’s, will have 30+ years with CPS upon retirement. They are both in “underperforming” schools.
Honestly, the stories they tell… I couldn’t do it. I don’t think most people could.
annony,
Riz is deplorable hating progressive. Nothing he says means anything or makes sense.
HD,
All drama aside, still no idea what you mean by ‘deplorable’. And yeah, I’m a progressive, mostly.
“You mean the 99.9% you would apply it to. It is demonstrable false that only 1 in 1,000 parents who is renting instead of buying is “on the wrong financial path”. 90% might be a reasonable argument, but I’d still say “show me the data”.”
—————————–
If it’s demonstrably false then demonstrate the falsity, which is your proposition. Seeing as how renters have, as a rule, lower incomes than owners, and children are enough of a financial burden to prevent people from saving enough to make a down payment (you’re not stupid enough to deny that, are you?), then your defense of “90%” (why not 89 or 91?) can be dismissed as the vapors of one denying reality given income levels and expenses today.
Spare us the histrionics, and your flutters that Bucktown extends South of Armitage. Sing and dance all you want, but if you’re having children while you are renting, then you are on the wrong financial path. No amount of poverty pimping can change that.
“Honestly, the stories they tell… I couldn’t do it. I don’t think most people could.”
Thank you Madeline. Imagine spending THIRTY YEARS teaching children, any children, at any school.
As I’ve said many times on this site over the last 10 years when people would comment about how “easy” it was to be a teacher and how “cushy” they had it etc. etc. – if it’s so great, nothing is stopping you from doing it. The profession could use older people with experience. Plenty of people change careers. It’s there for the taking since it’s so easy and everything.
Otherwise, just shut up and be grateful that there are great teachers out there for your children.
“Not everyone chooses their profession based on pay? Aren’t you a REALTOR – THATS LITERALLY HOW YOU MAKE MONEY.”
I’m not a realtor.
Lol.
And, again, NOT EVERYONE CHOOSES THEIR PROFESSION BASED ON THE PAY.
But you did Riz.
Sounds like you wanted to be a teacher. The pay is good. You get summers off. It’s not too late. I have friends who have changed careers in their 40s. Even going back to school. You only live once.
“Sing and dance all you want, but if you’re having children while you are renting, then you are on the wrong financial path. No amount of poverty pimping can change that.”
I’m gonna dance the 1920’s charleston to this one because as with every answer, there are nuances and exceptions. I know plenty of families – including relatives of mine – that had children and bought in…you know, 2005 and 2006 and 2007, and they’re financially in the wrong place still, a decade later. Buying a crappy house in Crystal Lake in 2007, that crashed in price the following year, was a recipe divorce, and there was LOTS of that going on.
OTOH I personally rented for quite some time until 2012 and had a couple of small children before I finally bought a small, reasonably priced house in a good neighborhood at the bottom of the previous market crash. I’d say as a general rule, you should be buying and not owning with children, and, as a general rule, don’t send your kids to CPS, but again, there nuances to that too, if you have a great neighborhood school (there’s like 8 of them) or attend a magent or have the clout that everyone on this board seems to deny to get into a preferred school.
“If you’re having children and you’re still renting, then you are on the wrong financial path”
Won’t this be most Millennials and now most GenZers?
The huge rental towers they’re building have plenty of 3-bedroom units. Someone is renting them. They’re supposed to be for families.
“Seeing as how renters have, as a rule, lower incomes than owners”
Um. What???
“How about we add units that are 400 sf +/-, with private bathrooms, and mini kitchens. Something noticeable better than historic SROs, but not up to ‘market’ preferences, even in the micro apartment space.”
They have this. In rentals. But they still aren’t affordable.
The Flats in River North on Chicago are super small like this.
There’s also that new building in Logan Square where you will have “common” amenities like kitchens and living space so you can “hang out” with each other. It’s basically like a big adult dorm where you have a room and bathroom with a microwave.
Good times.
“there is a shitload of affordable housing in Chicago… just not in desirable neighborhoods for the most part…”
So all those kids living in Logan Square whose parents are now under severe financial stress as their rents keep rising should just find some affordable housing in some other neighborhood???
Studies have shown that rising rents, which are eating bigger portions of paychecks, are really causing social issues now.
Makes you wonder what’s happening out in California or Southern Florida where they spend the most for housing as a percentage of their paychecks. The stress must be extreme and those kids must be in constant anxiety.
In 2012, the teachers struck for pay and also asked for air conditioning in all the schools. I guess that strike was “illegal” too.
They got the air conditioning, by the way.
“you know what would really reduce stress in those homes? two parent households, with steady jobs…”
Stop. This is always the throwback. “If only they had two parents.” Not everyone does. Does society just decide to leave them behind or do we provide assistance to those who need it?
“But from what you described, and at specific institutions ( which you REALLY SHOULD NOT FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE , IF TRUE, BECAUSE THEY MONITOR THE INTERNET ) – seem egregious.”
Enlighten me, please. Tell me who at those institutions is monitoring the internet. Tell what they are looking for. And, most importantly, tell me why I should not have described those experiences, from a legal perspective. I’ll wait. But in the meantime, let me say it again, in all caps, so that there’s no misunderstanding: THE INSTITUTIONS REFERENCED ABOVE DID NOT PERFORM CARELESSLY OR RECKLESSLY. I EXPRESSLY CHARACTERIZED THOSE INSTITUTIONS AS BEING THE BEST, AND GAVE A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE OF HOW A NURSE EMPLOYED BY ONE OF THE INSTITUTIONS MADE AN OTHERWISE ROTTEN HEALTHCARE EXPERIENCE BEARABLE. THE DOCTORS REFERENCED IN THE STORIES ABOVE, ON THE OTHER HAND, DID PERFORM CARELESSLY OR RECKLESSLY.
“So all those kids living in Logan Square whose parents are now under severe financial stress as their rents keep rising should just find some affordable housing in some other neighborhood???”
The answer is yes. For every poor renter who faces higher rents, there is a mom and pop owner occupied 2-flat/3-flat who is benefiting from higher rents, higher property values and contributes to the overall beautification of the city. No one has any ‘right’ as a renter to stay in the preferred neighborhood of their choice just because they happened to live there before. What about the owners’ rights? Don’t they have rights too? They can’t move their building to a cheaper neighborhood but the renter can pack up their stuff in a uhaul and move a few blocks away. Otherwise what you’re saying is that we should have some neo-feudalism where the rights of tenants (aka peasants) is enshrined in the law, and the peasants have a ‘right’ to stay in the community of their choice above and beyond the will of the property owner That may have worked out well for a chateaux owning lord 500 years ago but it’s really an awful idea for a mom and pop owner occupied two flat to be forced to rent to a tenant they don’t want, who can’t pay market rent, and they can’t legally remove. If the goal is to depress property values and keep rents low, that’s surely the way to do it.
” And yeah, I’m a progressive, mostly.”
thats dumb, you make a shitload of money… get your head out of your ass
“Stop. This is always the throwback. “If only they had two parents.” Not everyone does. Does society just decide to leave them behind or do we provide assistance to those who need it?”
we should provide assistance to encourage two parent households…. the way things are set up today, it is actually encouraging single parent households, which is destroying poor communities. Thanks LBJ
johnc, you are clearly on the wrong mental stability path.
“The huge rental towers they’re building have plenty of 3-bedroom units. Someone is renting them. They’re supposed to be for families.”
———————————-
Yup, and the renters are on the wrong path financially.
“The profession could use older people with experience.”
Total Comp proposition is very much different if you don’t get to (close to) 30 years of credit toward the pension. 2.2% of final salary (not exactly last year salary) per year, once vested, and first collecting at 67 (for anyone starting now, or anytime after 2011).
Without 20+ years, you don’t get nearly as far up the Steps, and you’re less likely to have the MA+45 to get to Lane 5 to max that final salary, either.
Which isn’t to counter your statement, but the comp structure is 100% built to be most beneficial for the career teacher.
“No one has any ‘right’ as a renter to stay in the preferred neighborhood of their choice just because they happened to live there before.”
I may surprise you with this HD, but I agree 1,000% with this. Makes me f’ing nuts when anyone acts like a one year lease (or even 20 consecutive 1 year leases) creates a multi-generational right.
Just like I cannot believe that no one has made a similar suggestion about public-pensioned employees. Yes, the IL constitution says we cannot take away the pension they *already earned*, but that doesn’t mean that they must be guaranteed continued accrual going forward.
“thats dumb, you make a shitload of money… get your head out of your ass”
It’s not in my ass…I’m going to sound like a d-bag, but I’m a progressive on certain issues ( woman’s right to choose, LGBTQ issues, a better healthcare system, not treating immigrants like crap, etc etc ) , and not on others (mostly financial stuff)
And I don’t think I make a ‘shitload’ of money. I think the CEO of my hospital makes what I would quantify as a ‘shitload’ of money.
““No one has any ‘right’ as a renter to stay in the preferred neighborhood of their choice just because they happened to live there before.”
I may surprise you with this HD, but I agree 1,000% with this. Makes me f’ing nuts when anyone acts like a one year lease (or even 20 consecutive 1 year leases) creates a multi-generational right.
Just like I cannot believe that no one has made a similar suggestion about public-pensioned employees. Yes, the IL constitution says we cannot take away the pension they *already earned*, but that doesn’t mean that they must be guaranteed continued accrual going forward.”
I actually agree with both you, HD, and anon on that issue.
Don’t think anyone deserves some guarantee to live somewhere at a similar price range just because they did before. That’s not how it works. This isn’t a socialist country and I don’t want it to become one.
As far as pensions go, Something has to change, but it’s probably not fair to cancel pensions altogether…Reducing them in some form going forward is likely not going to sit very pretty with the unions , which are another problem altogether.
“And, again, NOT EVERYONE CHOOSES THEIR PROFESSION BASED ON THE PAY.
But you did Riz.
Sounds like you wanted to be a teacher. The pay is good. You get summers off. It’s not too late. I have friends who have changed careers in their 40s. Even going back to school. You only live once.”
No, I don’t think I did at all. Trust me, if I did, I would have gone into dermatology and opened up a bunch of derm offices, or cosmetic dentistry , or investment banking/hedge funds, heck, I would have gone into corporate law. I’d make a lot more money in those fields.
As far as teaching is concerned, yes, I do think it is a sweet gig for people that don’t have ambition beyond a 4 year college degree in English. There’s nothing wrong with that. I’m just not programmed that way.
“Total Comp proposition is very much different if you don’t get to (close to) 30 years of credit toward the pension. 2.2% of final salary (not exactly last year salary) per year, once vested, and first collecting at 67 (for anyone starting now, or anytime after 2011).
Without 20+ years, you don’t get nearly as far up the Steps, and you’re less likely to have the MA+45 to get to Lane 5 to max that final salary, either.”
Is it really very much different? Doesn’t the salary curve flatten out? I thought you got most of the way up the curve from the first 10 or 15 years? The main compounding effect is from each year’s salary boost not only affecting comp in that year but also affecting comp in prior years bc it raises the value of the pension credit earned. But I thought that flattens out toward the end?
The fact that you’ll miss out on pension credit for years X to 30 is neither here nor there, other than the above point that it gets boosted by salary bumps in subsequent years, which dissipates as you are most of the way up the curve.
“don’t have ambition beyond a 4 year college degree in English.”
Actually the wrong approach, imo. Those are the people who tend to not make it as a career teacher.
Obviously there are lots of exceptions, but in general it’s usually either an ed degree, or a science degree, and in both cases, plus an MAT (one-year program) as soon as they can afford it, which bumps pay and serves are the certification basis for the non-ed degree folks.
“Doesn’t the salary curve flatten out?”
It does definitely, but when you compare the following pensions:
$70k/year (66% of $106k)
$37.4/year (44% of $85k (lower lane and step))
the value prop is pretty different.
Now, of course, a career changer (and this goes both ways…) probably also will get SS, having worked the 10 years to qualify, and my be sort of close to the top of the scale, there, too, which closes a lot of the gap, and if one was diligent saving in a retirement account, the overall may be close enough.
“It’s not in my ass…I’m going to sound like a d-bag, but I’m a progressive on certain issues ( woman’s right to choose, LGBTQ issues, a better healthcare system, not treating immigrants like crap, etc etc ) , and not on others (mostly financial stuff)”
Sounds like you lean more (hey gov’t leave me and everyone else alone) Libertarian than progressive to me…
“It does definitely, but when you compare the following pensions:
$70k/year (66% of $106k)
$37.4/year (44% of $85k (lower lane and step))”
It should be axiomatic that if you work more years, your total comp will be higher. You have to compare the pension earned per year of work, which is (assuming you’re doing 30 v 20 years), $2.33k annual pension earned per year, versus $1.87k. So the 20 year teacher has earned about 80 percent per year in pension benefits of what the 30 year person has. Less, but not categorically different. And I gather you’ve built in some lane shifts, which I dunno how common that is between years 20 and 30.
“…but I’m a progressive on certain issues ( woman’s right to choose)…”
If you believe in this so much, why not switch specialties and become an abortion doctor? IL is the baby killing capital of the midwest. There’s a perpetual shortage of ghouls willing to murder unborn infants up until the moment the child comes out the birth canal. You can make GOOD money with abortions in this state Riz, heck, it’s covered by Medicaid now (thanks Rauner, you POS) and IL’s recently passed infanticide bill requires private health insurance to pay for abortions up until moment the child 99.9% born. You could make a ‘killing’ $$$ being that IL doctor who will perform that abortion where the entire baby except for the head is out, and then you can do you thing. You could make more than any investmetn banker. You can store the fetuses in formaldehyde in your car like that ghoul from Indiana.
“(hey gov’t leave me and everyone else alone) Libertarian”
Yeah, no, as most of those things he supports are things where the guv’mint stands athwart our individual base impulses and prejudices.
Dang HD, hardcore about the abortion issue I guess.
Why not become an abortion doc?
Because just because I may or may not be against an issue does not mean I become the authority on it.
Because I may or may not oppose capital punishment doesn’t mean I become a prison executor you idiot. What’s next? I’m not opposed to a patient wanting to take their own life if they are a terminal cancer patient, but I should just kill them?
You are the reason the right wing is going to get demolished. Stop with the extreme, stupid as F examples.
You are so F’ng stupid dude, it’s beyond me. You are honestly one of the dumbest people I’ve ever come across.
What is the opinion of abortion doctors in the health care industry? Are they pariahs like the plaintiff’s med mal expert witnesses? Or in Chicago are they well respected? Id honestly like to know.
“up until moment the child 99.9% born”
Someone can be 99.9% born?
Lol.
Yes, this is why the “extremes” on both sides of the political aisle are just silly and no one listens to them.
“we should provide assistance to encourage two parent households…”
This is the argument, literally, from like 1985 under Ronald Reagan. They tried that then. Look at the data. That ship has sailed. With more women working and getting education, there are lots of single mothers. Lots of single fathers now too.
That’s not ever coming back.
However, it will be interesting to see if there are more two parent families because the Millennials are marrying so much later (nearly 30 for men and 27 for women) so they may be more likely to stay in that partnership longer than those marrying younger.
But childbearing numbers for women are really dropping now. We could become Japan in the next few decades as the birth rate continues to drop.
Now that I think about it, the government will likely, at some point, just be wishing women would have a child (single or otherwise.)
“For every poor renter who faces higher rents, there is a mom and pop owner occupied 2-flat/3-flat who is benefiting from higher rents, higher property values and contributes to the overall beautification of the city.”
The teachers want more affordable housing set aside in the mega-developments like Lincoln Yards so that the middle and working class have somewhere to live. We’re not talking about mom and pop landlords with one 2-flat (which is, actually, quite rare in Logan Square now, but I digress.)
Is that too much to ask?
If we want to push out the middle class, just take a look at San Francisco. They literally HAVE done it. And the city has no soul and tons of social problems.
I never said that the middle class or the working class or the poor have the “right” to stay in their same apartment forever. But the city is more stable if you don’t have housing orphans that have to move every year.
Isn’t that the kind of city everyone wants to live in? One with stability? Good schools. Safe neighborhoods.
Oh, wait, I forgot. You don’t live IN Chicago HD. You only visit every 5 to 10 years. Go to a Cubs game. Leave in your car.
For those of us who live and work in the city limits, we want to keep the city available to all income classes. The ongoing discussion is, how do you do it?
“there are lots of single mothers. Lots of single fathers now too. That’s not ever coming back.”
Says who? You are saying judeo-LGBT perv values/divorce/porn culture are here to stay? At some point, things are cyclical. Young people have a meme: “OK, boomer”, which means the youth are tired of the baby-boomers and the culture-wrecking society they’ve left everyone else to deal with.
HD: You blame (((Rauner))) for his judeo sell-out to his voters on abortion. You are still in denial as to who Jews are loyal to, and it’s never going to be you or white people or Christianity. I could’ve predicted Rauner’s sell-out but you never would listen.
[Edited by Crib Chatter]
Sabrina: You can throw even double the per-pupil month at CPS and it won’t result in higher test scores, that is because you are a denier of race-realism and group IQ differences among different races and diversity. This has been tried 100 different ways for the last 50 years with no results. It is what it is.
Riz: Hyde Park is another race-realism issue. Yes, you feel unsafe and people get mugged by blacks. It’s raw statistical data. Visit http://www.cwbchicago.com and you will see that blacks deliberate travel up to white and gay areas of Chicago to prey upon people and commite what should obviously be seen as black-on-white HATE CRIME. The point is also, that no matter where you are: Johannesburg, Chicago’s south/west sides, Zimbabwe, Baltimore, etc. blacks when left UNPOLICED with revert to their natural state, which is violence and race-hate and lack of education. Unless do-gooder liberals are willing to become slave-masters of these people, not much else will help.
“If we want to push out the middle class, just take a look at San Francisco. They literally HAVE done it. And the city has no soul and tons of social problems. ”
——————————–
Not sure if San Francisco’s social problems are any worse than Chicago’s, but if I have to choose between property tax revenue and “soul” I’ll take the property tax revenue any day.
No one is being pushed out of Chicago. They’re being pushed out of gentrifying neighborhoods. World of difference. We need to improve mass transit so those moving can get to tehir jobs more easily.
“I never said that the middle class or the working class or the poor have the “right” to stay in their same apartment forever. ”
You didn’t. Lots of others are saying that. In Logan, and Humboldt and Pilsen. And pressing for laws protecting them.
johnc, totally agreed.
If you can’t afford Lakeview or Roscoe village , Irving park is right around the corner. If you can’t afford south loop or west loop, you’ve got Pilsen / university village / tri Taylor area.
I can continue to make this argument and plug in rogers park, Edgewater, Lincoln square, and the list goes on. As far as big cities go, even with gentrification, I think there are plenty of decent housing neighborhoods / options where you don’t have to break the bank.
anon,
I see the activism pretty prominently in Logan square. Again, if you bought property in that neighborhood when it was cheap, then great – you can reap the benefits now. But just because you’ve been renting cheaply somewhere for 20 years doesn’t mean you get to for another 20 years.
I get my haircut in Logan and the barber was complaining about how his family has been renting a house in that neighborhood for 2000 a month, but now has to move because the owner’s property taxes are just too much, and blamed all the young liberals moving into the area. It freaking annoyed the crap out of me , b/c you can’t have it both ways.
f you want an unsafe neighborhood overrun by the latin kings, then keep it. You can’t have great new restaurants, bars, cafes, barber shops, and all the benefits the economic development has brought to your neighborhood, then complain about the people who are keeping the businesses open. Don’t charge me 40 dollars plus tip for a haircut then complain about me being there.
It would have been nice if prices in Gold Coast, river north , buck town, wherever were the same as 1998 too. I’d love it if I could still rent my sweet 1 bed on Astor street for 1450 with parking like I did in grad school, but I can’t. That’s why I moved. That’s life.
all these people whining for rent control are just ignorant crybabies who want all of the reward (fixed rent costs) for taking no risk (not actually buying a property)
Adding to Sonies point: In the last housing crash homeowners lost $16 trillion in net worth and 10 million people lost their homes to foreclosure (Washington Post). Renters lost $0.
“Don’t charge me 40 dollars plus tip for a haircut”
Hipster tax!
“I’d love it if I could still rent my sweet 1 bed on Astor street for 1450 with parking like I did in grad school”
Wow Riz, you were slumming it in grad school. You had in rough living on Astor street for $1,450 a month! My life in grad school was awesome – a crappy 2 bedroom I split with a roommate for $500 a month. No AC, radiator heat and original windows from 1920! I don’t think I even earned $1,450 a month clerking part time during all of grad school! But i had this amazing, amazing deck so big that the city codes don’t even allow it anymore. Alas, it was torn down in 2003 or something, when the buildings on either side of me were torn down too, and in its place is a big extra wide 6 flat with duplex ups and downs.
HD, sounds like you were a hipster in grad school. Not sure how old you are but maybe your rent was that low because you were in grad school a while before me? Lol.
I wasn’t in grad school all that long ago ( < 10 years ) so 1450 wasn't that crazy of a rent at the time..I just got a great deal on the place..It was in Astor tower, that building that used to be a hotel. Loved that place. Last I checked my old landlord was renting it for around 2400 a month, so he upped the price quite a bit after I left.
Seems silly now, but I left that apartment because he was increasing the rent to 1650. That seemed so astronomical to me at the time, and was completely unaffordable…Crazy how big of a deal 200 dollars a month was at one time.
Riz, next time you treat a patient you are almost certain is on Medicaid (more than 1 in 5 people in the state), ask them what their rent is today, and how many people live in their home. Then check your privilege at the door. Being such a woke progressive, you shouldn’t run around bragging that you got a good deal on your $1,450 a month condo in the gold coast. It makes you sound really unwoke. I was no hipster in grad school, i was literally living below the poverty line so as to hopefully improve my station in life.
HD,
Save it dude. Next time you have a client, ask them what they make / what their rent is.
You won’t. Because that is stupid. Just like you.
I’ll say it again, you are seriously one of the dumbest people I have ever argued with. You are a testament to the lack of intelligence needed to become an attorney in this country.
Being a progressive doesn’t mean I have to be a socialist, poor democrat.
Also, it’s INSANELY laughable, that as a white male, you’re telling me to check MY privilege at the door.
Now go home to your middle class existence and keep blaming me for it, dumb A**.
“You are a testament to the lack of intelligence needed to become an attorney in this country. ”
————————————————
“During the 1970 Senate debate over Richard Nixon’s nomination of G. Harold Carswell to the US Supreme Court, Mr. Carswell was characterized by his opponents as a mediocrity.. . . Nebraska Senator Roman Hruska took to the floor of the Senate to defend the nominee:
“Even if he were mediocre, there are a lot of mediocre judges and people and lawyers. They are entitled to a little representation, aren’t they, and a little chance? We can’t have all Brandeises, Frankfurters and Cardozos.””
— I am reminded of the graffitio I saw on a bathroom stall whilst in University and debating my graduate degree: “Thousands of idiots have passed the Bar, so can you!”
And, FYI — none of them thought Bucktown went South of Armitage.
“But i had this amazing, amazing deck so big that the city codes don’t even allow it anymore.”
Homedelete wants to make decks great again. Deck life isn’t worth living if there isn’t a risk of imminent collapse and death.
When homedelete’s grandmother lived in Chicago in the 60s, her deck was made out of toothpicks and it was fine because CPS hadn’t taught it to be socialist yet
” Next time you have a client, ask them what they make / what their rent is.”
I do actually. I do a lot of pro bono work and I have to do income and expense work sheet.
So there’s that….
I hate to tell you, but I’m not dumb. And you need to check your privilege at the door.
Your $1,450 rent is more than the maximum amount to qualify for expanded medicaid in Illinois, $1,366 per month. 1 in 5 people in the state is on Medicaid. Kind of crazy that your rent as an unemployed 25 year old cost more than 138% of the federal poverty limits! Talk about privilege!!!
“When homedelete’s grandmother lived in Chicago in the 60s, her deck was made out of toothpicks and it was fine because CPS hadn’t taught it to be socialist yet”
Hhahaaha actually the CTU was founded as a socialist organization…it’s pretty much been that way for 100 years now.
“Homedelete wants to make decks great again. Deck life isn’t worth living if there isn’t a risk of imminent collapse and death.”
What’s life without risk?
“— I am reminded of the graffitio I saw on a bathroom stall whilst in University and debating my graduate degree: “Thousands of idiots have passed the Bar, so can you!”
_______________________________________________________
What do they call the person who graduated last in their class in medical school:
Doctor.
________________________________________________________
As my law school professors regularly pointed out, the legal profession was writing the constitution and the bill of rights while doctors were still prescribing baths of mercury and leeches to balance the humors.
“Now go home to your middle class existence and keep blaming me for it, dumb A**.”
I didn’t blame you for anything. How do you know I’m even middle class? And what’s wrong with being middle class? Most middle class americans wear it as a badge of honor. The middle class is your valet, your plumber, your hair stylist, your mechanic, the guy who runs your IT dept.
What don’t you like the middle class? Is it that you don’t like how the middle class votes? What are you hinting at Riz, what are you really trying to say. If you’re going to insinuate something, just come out and say it.
What do they call the person who graduated last in their class in law school:
Counsel
As for doctors, leeches, and constitution writing — at least the doctors have made progress.
“Hhahaaha actually the CTU was founded as a socialist organization…it’s pretty much been that way for 100 years now.”
Those were simpler times, when all it took to get a deck approved in Chicago was to slip the inspector a Franklin
“Those were simpler times, when all it took to get a deck approved in Chicago was to slip the inspector a Franklin”
Yes, things have evolved Now you have to hire Burke or Madigan’s law firm to contest your property taxes. Whose firm did you hire, Frank?
“….Now you have to hire Burke or Madigan’s law firm to contest your property taxes. Whose firm did you hire, Frank?”
Posted by the lawyer who has bragged his politically connected law firm apparently generates gov’t related legal biz from certain partners ‘college fraternity relationships’. Whose frat brothers were they hd – Burke, Madigan, Cullerton or …?
Just now catching up on my Cribchatter…
Regarding CPS and teachers…there is a ton of nuance here. Is it really hard to become a teacher? Apparently not – if you are willing to work in a school that is having trouble filling open positions: https://www.npr.org/local/309/2019/08/05/748114048/1-in-3-chicago-public-schools-went-without-a-teacher-for-a-year
Are CPS teachers overpaid? Well, from the above article I’m guessing the ones teaching on the north side are overpaid and the ones teaching on the south side are underpaid since you have a supply/ demand imbalance. Also, I’ve heard that private school teachers in Chicago are paid less than CPS teachers. Not sure I can trust the kind of data I find online but I suspect this is true. If it is that tells you something. I’m not sure that us regular folks can even begin to know the whole story here.
And now that CPS has a higher burn rate property taxes are going up. Are we entering a death spiral here?
“The teachers want more affordable housing set aside in the mega-developments like Lincoln Yards so that the middle and working class have somewhere to live…Is that too much to ask?”
I think it is. Any attempt by the government to create affordable housing is going to have all sorts of negative unintended consequences. At the simplest level it makes housing unaffordable for someone else by artificially cutting supply or raising the cost of building market based housing. And it keeps people from moving away in a gradual and manageable fashion. Instead they get stuck, dependent on subsidized housing. Not to mention that it depresses wages by artificially increasing the supply of lower wage workers. The best cure for unaffordable home prices is people leaving and creating a labor shortage.
“If we want to push out the middle class, just take a look at San Francisco. They literally HAVE done it. And the city has no soul and tons of social problems.”
It might be a consequence but don’t position it as a goal by saying “want to push out”. And SF has plenty of soul and you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that their social problems are a result of the middle class leaving (not being pushed out). Actually, you could demonstrate that more of their problems are due to their zoning regulations. And I think, to my earlier point, rent control doesn’t do that city any favors.
“It might be a consequence but don’t position it as a goal by saying “want to push out””
There are more dogs than children in SF. Just saw the headline the other day. The culture in SF is about as anti-child as you can get. And it’s worked. Few bother to even have children there. The middle class is couples with 2 kids. They were driven out of San Fran-sicko as my relative in Sunnyvale regularly says.
“Few bother to even have children there.”
This is true of the United States as a whole. Birth rate is its lowest ever. Will only continue to decline. Women have opportunities now. They want to exploit them. And many men are realizing they aren’t the “father” type either.
By the way, the abortion rate is also at its lowest rate in 57 years. Better birth control is likely contributing to that number.
“And SF has plenty of soul and you would be hard pressed to demonstrate that their social problems are a result of the middle class leaving.”
No it doesn’t Gary. Soul comes from artists. It comes from the creatives who open new restaurants, paint, write novels. You can no longer do any of those things in San Francisco unless you’re old and arrived there 40 years ago and now have cheap housing.
But this has been going on for, literally, about 25 years now. Since the dot-com boom pushed out the artists out of the Mission lofts. The dancers and musicians left and have never returned.
Where’s the next Francis Ford Coppola writing his screenplay in a North Beach café? Where’s the big break out rock band? Oh, wait, neither exists anymore.
San Francisco has a tremendous employment base, among engineers mostly. Nothing wrong with that. But there’s no soul there now. Money doesn’t buy the creatives. And no creative except Danielle Steel can afford to live there. And she’s now 72.
“the guy who runs your IT dept.”
I don’t know about everyone else, but the IT guy is NOT the middle class. They can ask whatever salary they want.
“1 in 5 people in the state is on Medicaid.”
Reminder: Medicaid isn’t just for the poor. The disabled are also on it.
“Says who?”
Working women. Marriage rates. Birth rates. GenZ doesn’t even want to have children because of climate change.
Stop living in the past helmethofer.
“Sabrina: You can throw even double the per-pupil month at CPS and it won’t result in higher test scores, that is because you are a denier of race-realism and group IQ differences among different races and diversity. This has been tried 100 different ways for the last 50 years with no results. It is what it is.”
So you agree, Helmethofer, that Asians should make up the majority of students at Harvard and the rest of the Ivy League, if it was true blind admission, right?
As I’ve said, CPS has some of the best high schools in the entire nation. And the city and Illinois benefits from this. The old mantra “the city schools suck” is just that. Old.
Get into the 21st century everyone! Times have changed.
Yikes. Thought I posted a response to this thread the other night, seems a bit far gone now..
Can we all just agree that the CPS, and also helmethofer, are both absolute s*itshows?
Best,
Riz
“Yes, things have evolved Now you have to hire Burke or Madigan’s law firm to contest your property taxes. Whose firm did you hire, Frank?”
Funny you should ask, HD… I recently acted as the HOA overseer for a city-mandated complete rebuild of my building’s deck (oversized, you would like it). The first engineer reco we got word of mouth seemed kind of shady, so i did some research and it turned out he was an old Daley machine hack who’d been caught with his hand in the cookie jar back in the 90s. I ended up interviewing 9 more architects/engineers until I found someone who was competent and had the right relationships with City Hall… apparently she earned her connection the new-fashioned way, by being good at her job.
Anyway, to your point about deck regulations, what I learned is that no one understands what the rules are… everyone seems to be making it up as they go. Maybe cribchatter could do a post on decks, their relative value, the current regs, etc?
“Soul comes from artists. It comes from the creatives who open new restaurants, paint, write novels. You can no longer do any of those things in San Francisco”
SF has a ton of new restaurants and lots of great ones. Plenty of art galleries too. And my daughter is a novelist there so there must be a ton of them too – just like one home on the market for a long time = long market times for the entire market despite the data to the contrary.
“As I’ve said, CPS has some of the best high schools in the entire nation. And the city and Illinois benefits from this. The old mantra “the city schools suck” is just that. Old.”
A thousand times this. What I would add, as a parent who has dealt with the public school systems in NYC, LA, and Chicago, is that some people on this site are way underappreciating CPS. For all its problems, the point is, it works… yes you have to live in certain ZIP codes, and you have to know how to navigate the system, but it is doable. Lincoln Park High is actually just a good school, and you don’t have to test in.
Controversial take: what determines the quality of a given school isn’t the kids, or the teachers, it’s the parents… sit with that for a minute.
“Where’s the next Francis Ford Coppola writing his screenplay in a North Beach café? Where’s the big break out rock band? Oh, wait, neither exists anymore.”
—————————
Oh, they exist alright, just not in San Francisco. No problem with letting some other towns have their day in the sun, is there?
The most efficient way to cure San Francisco of its ills is to let the current eco-system burn itself out. Once the millionaires can’t get people to take in their dry cleaning and sell them popcorn at the movies, or valet their cars, the system will collapse and the market will respond with both more automation and market-based affordable housing (higher densities, etc.)
Sabrina:
“I don’t know about everyone else, but the IT guy is NOT the middle class. They can ask whatever salary they want.”
~~~ that is until the H1-B visas come through. Then they are toast. The help desk workers also make a pittance.
“Reminder: Medicaid isn’t just for the poor. The disabled are also on it.”
~~~ In some cases, yes. But disabled people – at least those that worked at some point in their life – get SSDI (ss disabilty) and are on medicaid, but then qualify for Medicare after two years. Those that are disabled and never worked are often on Medicare but that figure is relatively small. Medicaid in Illinois also pays for long term care for elderly on medicare with no assets or other income (which takes up a huge chunk of the medicaid budget).
SB:
“Posted by the lawyer who has bragged his politically connected law firm apparently generates gov’t related legal biz from certain partners ‘college fraternity relationships’. Whose frat brothers were they hd – Burke, Madigan, Cullerton or …?”
Blago, connected to Blago. I hope Trump commutes his sentence, he is an innocent man railroaded by the Mell family (patti is the black sheep among them!). What a great man he was, a great, proud Democrat. I’d vote for him again, and again, and early and often too if he would just run again!
“Yikes. Thought I posted a response to this thread the other night, seems a bit far gone now..
Can we all just agree that the CPS, and also helmethofer, are both absolute s*itshows?
Best,
Riz”
Agreed,
“As my law school professors regularly pointed out, the legal profession was writing the constitution and the bill of rights”
Ironic, as they were mainly self taught “lawyers”, and not really “legal professionals”.
“Can we all just agree that the CPS, and also helmethofer, are both absolute s*itshows?”
The irony of a street-sh*tting Hindu/Paki lecturing others about sh*tshows! lol! Everyone knows that if Greta Thunberg was truly virtuous she’d be lecturing the Indian subcontinent to clean up their pollution and environment.
“Get into the 21st century everyone! Times have changed.”
OK, boomer.
“I’ve heard that private school teachers in Chicago are paid less than CPS teachers.”
This is generally true nationwide, of course with many exceptions, certainly if you include the overall benefits package. And that’s even removing the various church-affiliated schools from the equation.
“Any attempt by the government to create affordable housing is going to have all sorts of negative unintended consequences.”
No, not any attempt.
Any attempt to impose it within an otherwise market rate development. Sure.
Any attempt to provide incentives for private developers to build it. Maybe. (I’d say our current situation in Chicago where it costs $400k/unit to build “affordable” housing a broken system–Habitat for Humanity ain’t spending $400k/unit)
But a blanket “any” isn’t based in fact.
So then describe a solution that won’t have negative consequences. Keep in mind that the hard core affordable housing/ integration advocates want affordable housing in Lincoln Park and other high income neighborhoods.
“Keep in mind that the hard core affordable housing/ integration advocates want affordable housing in Lincoln Park and other high income neighborhoods.”
Moving the goalposts, Gary. Sabrina would be proud.
You wrote that ALL attempts to create affordable housing have negative consequences. Not all attempts in Lincoln Park, or all attempts to placate the unreasonable.
I’m not going to waste my time, bc you’ll just find some “negative consequence” in anything that might be proposed.
Chicago has plenty of affordable housing. It just isn’t in neighborhoods that people think they deserve to live.
To be clear:
I am 100% opposed to the “luxury vouchers” that are floating around–there is no sound basis for housing one person for an amount that could be used to house 4 individuals.
I like the option of “poor doors” and zoning bonuses to co-locate affordable housing in larger projects–it’s no different from having a separate building across the street.
I like zoning that allows for extra units–what was/is a garden apartment, or an apartment above a garage, but “affordable housing”?
I’d like to see the city help non-profits and tax credit investors build affordable micro-apartments as replacements for SROs in marginal neighborhoods that still have decent transit access (Cook Land Bank has dozens of available parcels in Garfield Park, Homan Sq, Humboldt Park), and get more social services (yeah, yeah) into those areas–already has the benefit of relative proximity to the County Hospital.
Family housing is the tough one, especially bc too many (imo, more than zero is too many) treat it as a permanent situation, even after the first generation of kids has all grown up.
So…you’re wrong. I’m not going to find fault with those solutions because they are more reasonable than what I normally hear proposed.
And the “permanent solution” problem is a real one. I believe we need a mobile population that goes where the opportunities for them are best. Subsidizing attractive housing options that keep people from moving is not healthy.
But to your earlier point I wasn’t moving the goal posts. We never set goal posts. But I will tell you that I was having a conversation not too long ago with…well I don’t want to use labels but it was a neighbor who subsequently became a realtor and often expresses views consistent with his view on housing. He point blank said he would rather see the city build one affordable unit in Lincoln Park than 2 in Humboldt Park. I’m sure he’s not alone in that view given the policies that the city puts in place.
“Subsidizing attractive housing options”
Well maintained and safe is all it should be.
One bathroom. Kitchen w/o a dishwasher. Shared laundry.
I would make the accommodation that they should have central or wall unit a/c, so that you can use all the units for folks with health issues, too. And, at this point, wire the buildings for internet (and in most situations, have it as central wifi, like in a hotel), but not cable TV.
“he would rather see the city build one affordable unit in Lincoln Park than 2 in Humboldt Park”
Because fuck that other guy who has to sleep in a tent for another 5 years, bc they only built one unit, right? People are stoopid.
You know, Gary, I think that that “forced mobility” makes for very shitty neighborhoods. If everything and everyone is transient, there’s little opportunity for community to develop, people to collaborate on a local level, etc. Few would know their neighbors: maybe OK (and desired) for a luxury tower, but not so great for real neighborhoods.
Anon, we had subsidized affordable housing called housing projects. Unfortunately, they didn’t turn out to be very safe because other government policies encouraged a whole host of social dysfunction that festered in those communities of concentrated poverty.
I guess I don’t understand the need for affordable housing in a city like Chicago which has plenty of safe lower cost neighborhoods. I’ve always lived where I could afford. I am not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp for some people. I’d posit that people that can’t afford a place in Chicago have far more issues going on in their lives that cheap rent won’t necessarily cure.
With that said, I do understand why some communities need affordable housing. For instance, on Martha’s Vineyard there is a real need because police, fire, teachers, etc cannot afford to live on the island. It isn’t like they can just hop on the ferry from Boston to get to work every morning.
anon(tfo), I too like the idea of the poor door, in theory – it’s like the fast pass at Great America – but the optics are horrible when the likely white and asian residents get to go in the front door forcing the black and brown people to enter through the back door in the alley will bring on all kinds of problems.
juiceman – part of what makes big cities big cities is the transience of the residents that frequently move. Large numbers of rental units combined with a mobile, transit population give you vibrant places like Pilsen and Logan Sq. Neighborhoods where people are less mobile are the suburbs. All of my immediate neighbors were elderly and died or went into nursing homes, replaced by other neighbors I wave to every once in a while. I prefer the random late night drinking at the local tavern with the randos from the neighboorhood who are there one day and gone the next.
“Family housing is the tough one, especially bc too many (imo, more than zero is too many) treat it as a permanent situation, even after the first generation of kids has all grown up.”
Not sure if you’ve ever had to deal with the CHAC housing voucher market but those things are like winning the lottery ticket, especially if you can get into a larger unit in a tolerable building. The recipient of the vouchers (usually mother) starts out living there with the kids, and when they grow up, it transitions to adult children, to the grand children, and then they become guardians of relative minors, all so they don’t have to give up the heavily subsidized 3 bedroom apartment. There is zero incentive to leave a $400 a month three bedroom apartment on the north side – even if there’s only one person living there (hence the grandchildren and guardianships). It becomes an entitlement in many cases. how do you undo that? how do you tell the 54 year old grandma earning minimum wage that she needs to downgrade to a subsidized studio apartment when she’s been living in a large 3 bedroom for 20+ years?
” I do understand why some communities need affordable housing. For instance, on Martha’s Vineyard there is a real need because police, fire, teachers, etc cannot afford to live on the island. It isn’t like they can just hop on the ferry from Boston to get to work every morning.”
I get it but what would happen if you didn’t provide affordable housing? You’d have to pay them more so that they could afford the housing. I think that’s a better solution because it directly fixes the problem as opposed to transferring the cost to the housing market and causing some kind of imbalance there. And if young, single people figure out how to share housing at a lower cost and perform those jobs so much the better.
Hey Gary
So what are your thoughts then on requiring city workers like fireman to live within the city of Chicago and therefore potentially pay more for housing?
I don’t think there should be a rule like that but if you are going to have such a rule then you’re going to have to pay what you need to to attract qualified workers. I always worry that with city budgets they might lower their standards rather than set market wages but I don’t know for a fact that that happens.
” He point blank said he would rather see the city build one affordable unit in Lincoln Park than 2 in Humboldt Park. I’m sure he’s not alone in that view given the policies that the city puts in place.”
——————————-
Gary, I have to ask: What is your neighbor’s rationale for such a proposition?
Gary, in the case of Martha’s Vineyard, I am not sure the local governments could afford to pay enough for civil servants. I did a check and cheapest house on island was about $550k and it was a serious fixer upper. You’d have to pay about $150k or more for a single person to afford that realistically.
A big challenge with affordable housing in any city is that if a neighborhood is attractive – amenities, good schools, etc it will naturally attract more people which is going to drive up rents / prices.
Unfortunately, you can’t have it both ways – affordable and all the things that make a neighborhood popular. Basic supply and demand will require one of those things will have to give….
All things equal, I think gentrification is a positive though.
1) Just read an article that a larger percentage of Americans are working at low-paying jobs. How can people live on $15 per hour. Yet amazingly, the Democrat party and Conservatism Inc. wants more illegal and mass LEGAL immigration. Trump just told black leaders that sh!tlib democrats care more about illegals than Black Americans, and he’s right. Immigration causes an over supply of cheap labor and wages don’t rise. Econ 101.
2) China has manufacturing and has more billionaires now than the USA. Red China also ironically has more personal freedoms and they don’t force anal-acceptance and trannies on the nation’s children and bakery owners.
2) Russ is 100% correct that Chicago has TONS of affordable housing, it’s just that everyone thinks they deserve to live in a more preferable location. Correct.
3) Baby-boomers can’t sell their massive houses at low prices, and then we have this INSANE push for the Zoomers to eat insects and live in Japanese style pods “cause of the environment”. LOL
4) “Unfortunately, they didn’t turn out to be very safe because other government policies encouraged a whole host of social dysfunction that festered in those communities of concentrated poverty.”
Why try and blame “government policies encouraged a whole host of social dysfunction” for the failures of blacks? Blacks will always revert to their natural state in life, which is chaos. It’s actually a form of racism and colonialism for sh!tlib whites to try an force their lifestyles on other races. Why try and force a black person to live the life of some corporate, unwed, liberal b!itch who wastes her prime fertility years and beauty while wasting away for 15 years in some office building setting up “meetings”? I say the IVF liberals are the insane ones, not the blacks. Just a thought.
“What is your neighbor’s rationale for such a proposition?”
He believes that segregated economic classes causes problems.
” in the case of Martha’s Vineyard, I am not sure the local governments could afford to pay enough for civil servants. I did a check and cheapest house on island was about $550k and it was a serious fixer upper. You’d have to pay about $150k or more for a single person to afford that realistically. ”
So how much money would be spent to create one affordable home and how much salary is that going to save them? Theoretically it should be a wash or there would be some kind of arbitrage opportunity.
“Yet amazingly, the Democrat party and Conservatism Inc. wants more illegal and mass LEGAL immigration.”
Without immigrants, the US has no growth. It’s birth rate is too low now. We’ll be stuck in no-growth land, like Japan, for decades. And who wants that?
We are a land of immigrants, helmethofer. It’s in our blood. The country is big. 7 million jobs are unfilled right now.
“Red China also ironically has more personal freedoms”
Ba ha ha. This is the best laugh I have had in years.
Just a reminder if you are reading Helmethofer’s comments for the first time. Helmethofer doesn’t live in Chicago.
“I get it but what would happen if you didn’t provide affordable housing? You’d have to pay them more so that they could afford the housing.”
In Santa Barbara, cooks, maids etc. are all bused in from areas hours away.
Ditto for Brentwood and some of the areas impacted by fires. The low wage workers come from an hour or more away.
They aren’t paying them more to afford nearby housing.
“Oh, they exist alright, just not in San Francisco.”
But we’re talking about San Francisco. Gary says it has a soul. Sure, if engineers and billionaires bring a city soul, then it does.
But if it’s artists and creatives, then it doesn’t because they can’t live in San Francisco anymore. And they haven’t been able to for 15 to 20 years, frankly.
I’m not sure where they are getting people to work at the Starbucks or the restaurants. Or why you’d want to do that job and live in San Francisco, or anywhere in the Bay Area, for that matter.
“And my daughter is a novelist there so there must be a ton of them too”
Wow! I thought she was riding the google bus Gary? Gave up on that life already? Or wait, she is writing the novels while ON the bus. Yes, that would be the best way to do it.
Yipee!
Please tell me where the successful novelists in San Francisco are Gary. Honestly. I want to know. The oldies don’t count. I can’t even remember a young novelist coming out of there in 20 years. And no, the restaurants are actually CLOSING, not opening.
The food scene shifted over 10 years ago down to LA. I don’t know if it will ever go back to San Francisco. To have a cool food scene you need the young chefs. They’re simply not in San Francisco anymore. Haven’t been for a long time. I’ll be sad if it doesn’t ever come back in SF but you can’t make it there unless you raise your prices or serve only really expensive food. There have been articles written about it recently.
Sad.
I can’t even go back to San Francisco to visit because it’s so soulless now. Ugh.
Oh, one other thing.
“Red China” also gives away Helmethofer’s age.
Who call it that???
““I get it but what would happen if you didn’t provide affordable housing? You’d have to pay them more so that they could afford the housing.”
In Santa Barbara, cooks, maids etc. are all bused in from areas hours away.
Ditto for Brentwood and some of the areas impacted by fires. The low wage workers come from an hour or more away.
They aren’t paying them more to afford nearby housing.”
—————————-
And eventually the cooks, maids, etc will say “F**k this noise” and quit,taking jobs closer to home. The economic eco-system in San Francisco and such places will collapse, and the millionaires will have to do their own laundry, eat at the automat, and drive for hours to get their dry-cleaning done.
Then you’ll see increased automation and also a market-driven solution to unaffordable housing. The prices of houses will decline also, as San Francisco and such places become less pleasant to live in.
“Wow! I thought she was riding the google bus Gary? Gave up on that life already? Or wait, she is writing the novels while ON the bus. Yes, that would be the best way to do it. ”
Actually, she was working at Uber, which is in SF, and quit my dream job to focus full time on writing. She was writing in her spare time but that got to be too much and she enjoys writing much more. Of course, she will be making a mere fraction of what she used to make per hour. Kids!
“Please tell me where the successful novelists in San Francisco are Gary. Honestly. I want to know. The oldies don’t count. I can’t even remember a young novelist coming out of there in 20 years. And no, the restaurants are actually CLOSING, not opening.”
I don’t have their addresses but there are plenty of literary agents and publishers there so there must be lots. And I’m not sure why you qualified your question with “successful” since you don’t want to count “oldies” and the “oldies” tend to be more successful than the newbies in general. It’s a tough business to get going in. And are you saying that only SUCCESSFUL authors bring soul to a city? And my daughter knows plenty of SF authors but they tend to be new authors.
Show me your data on SF net restaurant closings. Whenever I’m there we visit hot, newish restaurants. There is certainly no shortage. And, amazingly, I can always find cheap meals on Mission Street.
<>
OK. My original statement was in the context of situations where you require city workers to live in a specific place or it’s too difficult for them to commute. That is clearly not the case for cooks and maids in CA. Of course you’re not going to pay them more as long as you make it convenient for them to commute. This is my argument against subsidized public transportation. Ultimately it just becomes a subsidy for low wage employers and depresses wages.
Interesting. Putting brackets around a quote deletes it from Cribchatter. Let me past the quote here:
“I get it but what would happen if you didn’t provide affordable housing? You’d have to pay them more so that they could afford the housing.”
In Santa Barbara, cooks, maids etc. are all bused in from areas hours away.
Ditto for Brentwood and some of the areas impacted by fires. The low wage workers come from an hour or more away.
They aren’t paying them more to afford nearby housing.
Sabrina,
I’ll just briefly chime in because I lived in SF for a bit a few years back – a good amount of the artists / musicians / locals were hanging on at the time – some lived with their parents or family members in slightly less desirable areas of SF ( trust me, not everyone is living in the mission , the marina, etc ) , a lot of them trained in from the less desirable parts of Oakland as well.
If you had to ask me where a lot of the ‘artsy’ cali crowd went, I’d say Oakland is probably the next Brooklyn.
SF still had plenty of soul because many of the same quirky shops, restaurants, bars, and most importantly, the public parks were still around. Lots of hippies, homeless, and super liberals milling about all over SF.
I will agree it was a LOT of tech kids fresh out of college making six figures mixed in with random millionaires, but there was much more to the city. I miss it very much, but would never move back.
“through the back door in the alley”
Well, that would obviously be no good, but there are plenty of places where it could be managed without it being so obvious. It’s not really that much different that the separate entrances at Water Tower between the theater, the condos and the Ritz–just have one around the corner, or on the backside of the building, on a different street. Lots of precedent for the separate elevators, and separate lobbies, and separate amenities, already.
Put the affordable housing on a separate vertical lot, and it can be sold and financed apart from the market rate apartments or condos. I get where the objections come from, but I just really find them self-defeating.
“If you had to ask me where a lot of the ‘artsy’ cali crowd went, I’d say Oakland is probably the next Brooklyn.”
No artist can afford Oakland either. They didn’t up and leave San Francisco in the last 5 years to go buy $800,000 Oakland lofts.
20 years ago, they would leave to go to Vallejo. I don’t know if they still are. But they’re not in San Francisco and haven’t been for a LONG time.
What “quirky” shops?
A lot of the old restaurants in North Beach have closed in recent years. Granted, there was little reason to have 10 Italian restaurants all next to each other serving the same bland spaghetti but at least it was uniquely San Francisco. The neighborhood used to have a rule forbidding chains. I wonder if it still does?
And “hippies” haven’t lived in San Francisco for 20+ years. That’s the old 1960s and 70s view of San Francisco and the Haight. The dot-com boom wiped that out and it has never come back.
But that’s their problem, not Chicago’s. Chicago hasn’t priced out all its artists, thank goodness. Not yet anyway.
“Actually, she was working at Uber, which is in SF, and quit my dream job to focus full time on writing.”
How does she pay her rent?
No “unsuccessful” writers can afford to live in San Francisco that’s why I say successful. Unless they are living off a spouse, then, sure. Most novelists can’t afford ANY city though (sadly) as pay is pathetic now. No publisher is grooming young writers anymore and the midlist is shrinking and probably not coming back.
I’m always shocked there aren’t more novelists in Silicon Valley, as they can easily quit their stock option jobs or live off spouses with stock options and write for a living. But there haven’t been any. No one has emerged. All that wealth in that small area and NOTHING.
By the way, there was a book out like 20 years ago about how you could write in the cafes of San Francisco (much like there are such books about living the writers life in Paris.)
It seems SO out of date now. I wonder how many copies it sold, even back in the day? It was already out of date after the dotcom bubble.
“Show me your data on SF net restaurant closings. Whenever I’m there we visit hot, newish restaurants. There is certainly no shortage. And, amazingly, I can always find cheap meals on Mission Street.”
https://abc7news.com/food/local-restaurant-owner-explains-why-so-many-san-francisco-eateries-are-closing/5580162/
“About two years ago, we started to see this trend starting where we’re seeing more closings than openings,” Jed explained. “We’re on track for nine percent less openings than closings. And we don’t know what 2019 will bring.”
The Golden Gate Restaurant Association looked at numbers from Yelp and found that last year 325 restaurants in San Francisco closed versus 298 that opened. They anticipate this year there will be even more closures, despite what’s considered to be a strong economy.
“What “quirky” shops?”
Pretty sure that Thrasher is still being quirky on Underwood at Ingalls.
“And “hippies” haven’t lived in San Francisco for 20+ years.”
It’s not right in the city, but take a spin up to San Rafael and stop by Terrapin Crossroads. Some hippies’ hair might be short (or gone) now, but they’re still “Everywhere”.
“How does she pay her rent?”
Anecdotally speaking, I’d say that SF has been the number one (just ahead of NYC) destination for kids and grandkids of affluent boomers. Most don’t stay there forever (many, especially the more insufferable among them, end their stint in SF and put down roots in places like Boulder, rolling up in their Tesla and giggling about how cheap it is to buy a nice house).
“How does she pay her rent?”
Hah! She got married about a year ago 🙂 However, even if that hadn’t happened she would have been OK for a while. 1) Her share of rent for a nice 2 bed apartment was $2050/ month. The landlord thought the place was subject to rent control. 2) She saved a ton of money while working for…was it 6 or 7 years? 3) Her book advances would have been enough to get by on for the time being.
Not saying that starving artists can afford SF but the makeup of a city evolves over time. And I was actually in The Haight for her book launch and it looked pretty artsy to me. Got some large pizzas for like $15 or so.
Every time I’m in SF I remark on how I see plenty of people walking around that just “look” like they can’t afford to live there. So either the soul is still there on a higher salary or rent control.
“The Golden Gate Restaurant Association looked at numbers from Yelp and found that last year 325 restaurants in San Francisco closed versus 298 that opened.”
Thanks for the data. So there are in fact 298 new restaurants and that could provide a city with a lot of soul. Losing 325 isn’t that bad with 298 new ones. And I’m sure that the new restaurants skew to higher price points but that still makes for an interesting city.
What’s interesting is that the article cites a rising minimum wage AND a labor shortage. Labor shortages result in higher wages without an increase in the minimum wage. So is the minimum wage an issue or not? I see this in restaurant articles all the time. The last one I read about NYC (shared it with Milkster in fact) they were claiming the minimum wage had no negative impact on the restaurant industry there. Not sure I believe that but the jury is out on that one.
“Every time I’m in SF I remark on how I see plenty of people walking around that just “look” like they can’t afford to live there.”
thats just how people are out west, nobody really wears fancy suits or nice clothing to work, thats more of an east coast thing
you’ll see guys getting out of lambos with t-shirts and flip flops and cargo shorts who look like they haven’t showered in a week
my friend who lives in Seattle loves to play the game he calls “homeless guy or tech millionaire”
“And I’m sure that the new restaurants skew to higher price points but that still makes for an interesting city.”
Yeah- there’s another article talking about how restaurants charging under $25 for the entrée basically don’t exist anymore. You can’t make the numbers work. So everything is in the upper price bracket unless the restaurant got lucky and bought their space like 30 years ago (a family restaurant etc.)
These numbers are for last year Gary. They are even worse in 2019. Won’t know for a few more months how worse though.
No thanks. It’s just yucky in SF now. But it usually gets really yucky just before a bust, actually. Same thing happened in the late 1990s. Homelessness exploded, everyone was living in group housing, the expressways were nightmares, record high housing prices, teachers living in cars and showering at gyms. Same things going on now.
“So either the soul is still there on a higher salary or rent control.”
Yeah- it’s always been like this. One of my old co-workers was paying $450 a month for his rent controlled apartment (with a 60 year old stove, however.) That’s the people who still have remained. But it’s WAY worse now than it ever was before. Those people in rent controlled apartments have been dying off. Or the apartments have been converted to condos or tenants in common housing.
No city is perfect. Not SF or Chicago.
“end their stint in SF and put down roots in places like Boulder, rolling up in their Tesla and giggling about how cheap it is to buy a nice house”
Boulder? Gag. Hell no. Boomers only and it’s NOT cheap. Hasn’t been for decades now.
Denver, yes. They’ve all moved to Denver and immediate suburbs.
“Boulder? Gag. Hell no. Boomers only and it’s NOT cheap. Hasn’t been for decades now.”
Oh, yeah. It’s boomer central in Boulder. lol.
“Boulder? Gag. Hell no. Boomers only and it’s NOT cheap.”
You catch a little of Clio’s reading comp problem, Sabrina?
Cheap, compared to SF, for Trust Fund Kids.
“These numbers are for last year Gary. They are even worse in 2019. Won’t know for a few more months how worse though. ”
well, this article tells a different story. “For many aspiring chefs and restaurant owners who have made a name for themselves through pedigree or pop-ups, the city’s tech wealth has made it easier to secure the money to open a new restaurant. “Most people don’t realize the market of investors there are in San Francisco,” Borden said, noting the people interested in supporting the city’s world-famous dining culture.” https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/article/While-SF-restaurants-have-flourished-rising-13510200.php
“Most people don’t realize the market of investors there are in San Francisco,”
Why wouldn’t they realize that? Seems like a world of multi-millionaires who have a decent chance of being swayed by something “cool”.
Of course, the best way to may a small fortune in the restaurant business is to start with a large fortune.
Really Gary?
That article is from January. Come on. 10 months ago.
In the meantime, some long time San Francisco stalwarts have closed because they can no longer make it. It’s upsetting to people to lose the mom and pop places (same as in Chicago.) Michelin stars are great, but when was the last time you went to one? There need to be local places. But SF can’t have that.
By the way, some people on Twitter the last few days were debating the best restaurant cities. They included New Orleans, Chicago, LA and New York. San Francisco didn’t even make it into the discussion (and there was real discussion about LA making it.) It would have made it on a list of the “best” 25 years ago. It was far superior to any other city on the west coast in the 1990s.
But it’s been downhill ever since.
Again, the city is soulless now. And it’s reflected in the lack of innovation in the food scene. Young chef’s don’t want to go there. They’re going to Pittsburgh instead. Lol.
“Cheap, compared to SF, for Trust Fund Kids.”
Again, anon(tfo). Boulder is for OLD PEOPLE! Unless you’re talking about trust fund kids who are in their 60s. Then sure.
Otherwise, everyone is in Denver now.
Sabrina, when was the last time you were actually there? Gimme a break. Next time you are in town try one of these. Most on this list are new. https://sf.eater.com/maps/best-new-restaurants-san-francisco-oakland-berkeley-heatmap We never have trouble finding a really good restaurant there.
“Boulder is for OLD PEOPLE!”
Last time, you capitalized “NOT cheap”, putting the emphasis there.
Which was what you misread from Anonny’s point.
And on a totally different subject…here is a counter example to the ever popular narrative that businesses want and need to be in the city to attract talent: https://www.chicagobusiness.com/commercial-real-estate/downtown-rents-have-companies-taking-second-look-burbs
“And on a totally different subject…here is a counter example to the ever popular narrative that businesses want and need to be in the city to attract talent:”
I don’t know anyone who will work out in the burbs for a major corporation. Walgreens employees have been waiting a decade to finally get downtown.
“Sabrina, when was the last time you were actually there?”
Last year.
I couldn’t wait to get out of there and spend time in the wine country. Although many of my favorite restaurants there were in sad shape too. That area has really aged. Wow. Yikes. I guess those that were 50 during the dotcom boom are now 70, so it makes sense. But it was shocking to me to see how “old” Sonoma was. I wonder if it’s simply the cost of living there? No younger people can move there.
No one wants to work in the burbs, but mature adults realize sometimes you have to make sacrifices. With that said, all things equal, many people will choose a company with an office in the city over one in the burbs when given the choice.
Most of the major companies all have downtown offices for this reason. Functions like marketing, IT, etc need younger talent and they prefer to be in an urban environment.
It will be interesting to see how attitudes change though as the younger generation starts having children. Vast majority of people don’t want to raise a family in a 1200 sqft 2/2 condo. The vast majority also can’t plunk down $1 million for a single family home either.
“It will be interesting to see how attitudes change though as the younger generation starts having children. Vast majority of people don’t want to raise a family in a 1200 sqft 2/2 condo.”
Surprisingly, GenX, which got trapped in their shiny new 2/2s during the financial crisis, managed to do just this. Was there a mass exodus of GenX to the suburbs? Not that the data shows.
Fewer Millennials are marrying and fewer of them are having children. A married couple, without kids, has no trouble living in their city 2/2 for the next 20 years.
“No one wants to work in the burbs, but mature adults realize sometimes you have to make sacrifices.”
Sometimes it’s not a sacrifice to work in the suburbs. There’s free parking, no homeless bums, all the same casual dining restaurants, often a much shorter commute, and cheaper rents. I know the trend for millenials has been towards the city, and I was certainly part of that trend, but that trend may be starting to reverse itself in some ways. These last few weeks have been ridiculous for me, taking an hour or more to travel 16 miles between taking the train, the bus and walking. Downtown is not so much vibrant as it is congested these days. And congestion isn’t vibrancy, it’s just congestion. And keep in mind that the suburbs will become super popular again as soon as the city income tax or commuter tax is approved by Springfield and passed by the mini-Maos in City Council. I’m sure as heck not paying an income tax to Chicago for the privilege of commuting 70 minutes each day, one way, just to keep a Chicago office. Downers Grove, here I come!
“It will be interesting to see how attitudes change though as the younger generation starts having children.”
This assumes they will even be having children. Someone told me today that of this person’s 16 cousins between the ages of 25 and 40, not a single one of them had any children. No little kids at any family holidays. No 1st birthday parties, no graduations, nothing. It’s kind of sad if you think about it.
Our elites have created an environment that makes it too expensive and difficult to have children for middle class people, (but oh so very easy to dispose of them pre-birth); to the point that school districts like CPS are practically begging for undocumented immigrants to reproduce so as to fill all those empty seats at the CPS schools. But million dollar homes in good school districts and gangs infiltrating what even used to be decent areas have really destroyed what’s left of the middle class. Dont’ believe me? read the story today in the trib about the German student in his leap year who came to the US to build homes for hurricane victims. He visited Chicago and was here for less than 24 hours, in Bridgeport of all places, when random gangbangers pulled out, shouted gang affiliations, and just senselessly shot at the group. The guy was in Chicago 48 hours and got shot. That’s really an awful story that reflects poorly on each and every one us. But hey, there’s a new foodhall in the basement of 55 E Monroe, lets go there for an $18 chicken sandwich!!!
“I know the trend for millenials has been towards the city, and I was certainly part of that trend, but that trend may be starting to reverse itself in some ways.”
Sorry. It hasn’t changed yet. The 76 story high rise apartment towers keep going up and getting filled.
Of course, that’s with GenZers now as Millennials are old. I don’t know why we’re still talking about them and their influence. Most have settled where they are going to be because they’re over 30.
“Millennials are … over 30”
So, the millennial generation is the birth cohort from 1983 (or 82) all the way thru 1989??
GTFO!
The earliest last date for Gen Y (from any reputable US source) is 1996. So 23 yos.
Of course, everyone wants to be a Y instead of an X because X will forever be the middle child of late-20/21st century America. Like the Silent Generation was to the 20th.
So, courtesy of Bernie, I’m back to my homeless count bitching:
Bernie sez that 500,000 people are sleeping on the streets. That gets fact-checked to under 200,000 (out of 553,000 homeless in shelters or on the street). But Chicago’s homelessness advocates want everyone to believe, and develop local policy to deal with, 86,324 *just in the city of Chicago*. When the Census has the number as under 11,000 for all of Illinois.
We’re supposed to develop policy based on a proposition that a city with 0.8% of the national population has 15.5% of the nations homeless? Having been in CA recently, and comparing to the Chicago incidence, that would have to mean that SoCal + SF have about 5,000% of the nation’s homeless.
I understand *why* the advocacy groups count the way that they do, but it turns off (the relatively few) people like me who might be inclined to be involved with less BS, and gives the “other side” (whatever it is on a given issue) a basis for discrediting the numbers. Kinda like Warren’s “no middle class tax increase to pay for M4A”–it’s opaque definitional games of the sort that turn off most people (“depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is” being a great example)
“Of course, everyone wants to be a Y instead of an X because X will forever be the middle child of late-20/21st century America. Like the Silent Generation was to the 20th.”
No they don’t. Ask any 38 year old. They relate more to the Xers than any of the Ys. Many consider themselves Xers. They didn’t have cellphones in high school, for instance. They didn’t have social media while in high school or college.
The old Yers are really distinct from the 23 year old youngest Yers. It’s shocking, really.
This 37 year old considers himself a Xennial. My 35 year old wife does as well.
Jenny who used to be a CC regular was about the same age. She referred to us as the Oregon Trail generation.
Uh oh. Here goes Chicago’s soul. https://www.chicagobusiness.com/restaurants/turns-out-chicagos-appetite-new-dining-options-has-limits
“Uh oh. Here goes Chicago’s soul.”
If Chicago restaurants are closing due to rising rents and rising wages and locals who don’t want to eat out for over $25 an entrée, what do you think is happening in San Francisco Gary?
It’s even worse there. At least we still have some cheaper neighborhoods.
It’s been a huge driver of jobs in Chicago, as the article states. It’s been in contraction in San Francisco since 2000, so it’s doubtful it’s having much impact there as it shrivels and dies. For every restaurant job lost, they just add one at Salesforce.
For instance, take Naan n Curry. It used to have 5 or 6 locations in the city and now just has 2. Hard to pay those skyhigh rents with cheap Indian food. Presumably, the rent in the Tenderloin is pretty cheap which is why it can remain open there.
They’re raising the rents in Napa now too. 37 years in business but they chose not to renew the lease. 37 people out of jobs.
https://abc7news.com/business/napa-restaurant-dedicated-to-locals-forced-out-of-business/5720926/
did anyone else see that San Francisco’s housing prices are down y/y? Some areas, like 7-10%?
remember it starts on the coasts and heads to the middle of the country
Sabrina,
Here is some food service and drinking establishment employment data for the SF area: https://beta.bls.gov/dataViewer/view/timeseries/SMU06418847072200001
It’s still trending upwards – as I would expect. You can’t have a bunch of rich people with no place to eat.
“did anyone else see that San Francisco’s housing prices are down y/y? Some areas, like 7-10%?”
I keep an eye on it for my daughter. What data are you looking at? Case Shiller showed the metro area down 0.7% YOY. I’ve also looked at some city wide data that shows prices flat to slightly declining but nothing like 7%. I have not tried to look at it at the zip code level.
“It’s still trending upwards – as I would expect. You can’t have a bunch of rich people with no place to eat.”
Of course you can Gary.
As we already know, for the first time since the recession, the number of restaurants is actually falling in San Francisco. Not surprising as the rents have soared and have the wages/benefits. And no one who works there can afford to live anywhere near their jobs, so there’s that.
What my friends have told me is that many restaurants in some really expensive areas like Pac Heights have simply eliminated wait staff. You take a number and they bring the food out to you. You have to cut costs somehow.
It’s all awful. When a city gets that unbalanced, it’s soulless.
By the way, if you haven’t seen it yet, the New York Times ran a travel article on a new crosstown trail in SF. But I felt like the opening paragraph represents what San Francisco has become to many who live there, those who visit there, and those of us who once lived there and left.
“I was feeling down on my hometown, a fractured city of appalling inequality out of which has sprung an industry that’s contributed to the ruin of our country — and also, probably, my mind. The quirky tech scene had soured, while the houses had gotten grander and the homelessness more brutal. My family has been in San Francisco for six generations, but maybe with me it would be done.”
The tone is just so depressing.
Because the city is depressing now. Blah.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/18/travel/crosstown-trail-san-francisco.html
“remember it starts on the coasts and heads to the middle of the country”
Seattle is down big too. But the prices in SF and Seattle have soared to such unimaginable heights, they really have nowhere to go but down.
And it’s not really relevant to the heartland. Our prices depend on mortgage rates.
Sabrina,
What you are saying runs counter to the data. Food service jobs are rising in SF. That’s a fact.
Gary, it was some NBCbay area fake news I guess… when watching the video attached to the article I felt myself getting dumber so yeah… anyway they say median prices are down 7%
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Bay-Area-Home-Prices-Continue-to-Slide-Study-564685281.html
Chicago property values down 4 percent, most of any big city globally.
https://therealdeal.com/chicago/2019/12/03/windy-citys-real-estate-blown-away-by-other-cities/
Sonies, OK. So that’s for the entire Bay Area. Local realtors claim that the city is doing better. Also, it’s median sales prices. So if suddenly sales skew more towards condos then the median sales price will decline without home prices actually declining.
Seems like costs declining in Chicago and, especially, in SF is good news.
The claim that there is an affordability problem across the nation (which is false) and that it’s terrible if Chicago real estate increases at about inflation (which seems to be true) are contradictory.
That said, are Chicago prices being held down by taxes, yeah, likely.
“What you are saying runs counter to the data. Food service jobs are rising in SF. That’s a fact.”
The data says fewer restaurants are opening than are closing which means that is falling. Perhaps they’re working in the college cafeterias or something?
Those poor people. Imagine working in food service jobs in San Francisco? Imagine working at the Starbucks?
WHY????
My gosh. Awful.
Just move the hell out of that city already.