Park Ridge Alert: “Magical English Tudor” Listed $314K Under 2006 Price: 313 Wisner
As many of you know, I don’t often post on the suburbs because there is just too much going on in the city of Chicago. But given that many of you ARE interested in the inner ring suburbs, I occasionally do venture beyond the city limits.
Thanks to the tipster who pointed out this 4-bedroom vintage English Tudor at 313 Wisner in Park Ridge.
It has been on the market since April 2008.
In that time it has been reduced $379,900 and is now listed $314,000 under the 2006 purchase price.
No- it does not appear to be a short sale.
Built in 1927 on a 50×160 lot, the listing says the vintage house has been classically restored.
The kitchen has cherry cabinets, granite counter tops and white appliances.
3 of the 4 bedrooms are on the second floor with a first floor master.
It also has a finished family room in the basement.
The house has a 2-car garage, a fenced yard and central air.
Is this house indicative of the price declines in Park Ridge since the height of the market?
The house is currently listed $65,000 under even the 2002 purchase price.
Will it finally sell in 2011?
Craig Tinder at Century 21 Elm has the listing. See the pictures here.
313 Wisner in Park Ridge: 4 bedrooms, 2.5 baths, 2400 square feet
- Sold in August 2002 for $565,000
- Sold in March 2006 for $814,000
- Originally listed in April 2008 for $879,900
- Reduced numerous times
- Currently listed at $500,000
- Taxes of $14,083
- Central Air
- 2 car garage
- Bedroom #1: 17×14 (main level)
- Bedroom #2: 15×13 (second floor)
- Bedroom #3: 15×12 (second floor)
- Bedroom #4: 13×11 (second floor)
- Family room: 21×12 (basement)
Eugene Field school is 10x better elementary than CPS. Taxes are $14K but probably could be successfully appealed. At $208 per square foot, this should sell, unless there is something wrong with the property than cannot be identified over the internet.
I have no idea how much this place is worth or even where is this suburb, but that kitchen needs a total rehab as the bathrooms at least one of them. Also the colors of the walls will have to go if I were to live here which of course I hope will never happen….lol…but the house is solid and cute.
When I first read this I thought the house said 314k and I still didn’t think it was a deal with the Taxes of $14,083 a year
… didn’t realize it was 500k
yeah no thanks
The taxes scare potential buyers.
its walking distance to all the restuarants, trader joes, the pancake place, five guys, a movie theater.
hmmm lets see what the hater on cc can come up with today.
Hey this is Paaaaak Ridge, the neighbor should seize the opportunity and buy it, knock it down and build that lush expansive garden they always dreamed of.
“The taxes scare potential buyers.”
Unless they have or soon will have kids in high school.
“I have no idea how much this place is worth or even where is this suburb, but that kitchen needs a total rehab”
Huh?? You’re blinded by all those South Loop kitchens you’ve been looking at. This kitchen needs new range. Other than that, this kitchen has granite tops, stainless sink, recessed lighting. It looks relatively recent to me.
Finished basement is nice touch for this area.
Exterior looks well maintained.
Great schools.
I actually like this, and I’m a city-dwelling real estate bear.
$450-$475.
“hmmm lets see what the hater on cc can come up with today.”
Spin the wheel… blacks, gays, west of LSD, overpriced, bad transport, overpriced again, world ending, so-so school.. spin away!!!
laugh if you may mr carioca but it is rather far west of lsd
“kitchen needs a total rehab as the bathrooms at least one of them”
re-read the listing.
’07 – new master suite w/ bath
’07 – new kitchen granite and cherry cabinets
’07 – new upstairs bath
’07 – new wiring
meh…
Taxes aren’t bad if the schools are good…you get value in that, unlike most of Chicago. The house itself is…OK. That’s the problem…OK things aren’t selling when in this market unless they are priced BELOW market. Only fabulous properties are selling at market b/c everyone wants a deal…if it ain’t fabulous, unique or in short supply then you need to be priced below your competitors to sell.
“its walking distance to all the restuarants, trader joes, the pancake place, five guys, a movie theater.
hmmm lets see what the hater on cc can come up with today.”
This is my (serious) point about the nw neighborhoods in the city. What’s the upside versus park ridge (if you don’t need a city address)? Here you get stuff within walking distance, more of a local downtown area, and a high school
Nice little house…in fact, if i were ready to move to the burbs (which i hope will never happen), I would get on this like a mother. All I see needing to do here is painting and new appliances in the kitchen.
I wonder why so cheap though? Is it in the crappy part of Park Ridge?? The schools are excellent there (which accounts for the 14k in taxes), so i’m confused why its so cheap.
“The house itself is…OK. That’s the problem…OK things aren’t selling when in this market unless they are priced BELOW market”
Guess that’s my answer.
“What’s the upside versus park ridge (if you don’t need a city address)?”
4k in taxes to 14k in taxes every year and its only going up! there you go
Whoa, 14k in taxes is high even for nice suburbs with good districts. That’s 1200 a month.
How much would a house like this cost in Wilmette?
I would much rather live in Edgebrook or Sauganash than Park Ridge. If I had to live in a suburb, I would go with Wilmette.
As someone who is most likely never going to have kids, I would not want to pay higher taxes just for other people’s kids to go to school. I never plan to leave the city though.
How much will taxes change when this sells for $450k, down from $814k?
With the state fiscal situation in crisis, the taxes can only go up. No state financial assistance means all funding must come from the community. And wiht a small commerical/industrial tax base, the homeowners bear the cost.
And maine high school dist teachers are paid well.
“4k in taxes to 14k in taxes every year and its only going up! there you go”
Fair enough, although the taxes for this place are surely influenced by the prior sale (certainly park ridge taxes generally seem higher) and is it clear that taxes are going up more in park ridge than chicago?
now THIS could be called the NW side…
also what’s up with all the hotness of park ridge for younger people?
I took a long look at this house. Shocked it’s on this site. Staying in the city for one more year, but gave this house serious thought. I believe the owner is an older person who is now living in FL, renting this out. Nice street in PR. Taxes are very high, 2006 price was insane.
Good schools, metra, downtown, close to two highways, close to city.
Chicago taxes are only going up too. And CPS high schools aren’t getting any better.
Park Ridge has it all over Edison Park, Norwood Park, etc., if you have more than one kid in or approaching HS.
I think you can contest these taxes and get them lowered. They’re out of whack with the rest of the neighborhood.
These pesky real estate taxes occur in leafy inner-ring suburbs that would appear otherwise to have vintage “white-collar” houses that are seemingly affordable to a dual-income w/two+ school-age kids upper-middle income (by my definition, $100,000 to $200,000 annual income) families. Those RE taxes are a startingly expensive additional $1200 to $1500 monthly budget item, a factor to be considered in purchase and financing of a $450,000 to $650,000 house in those otherwise desirable suburbs.
Expect noticeably rising RE taxes each year, with tax protestations to have little affect. Typical suburbanite has little appetite for or interest in local politics. Most suburban boards/councils are “rubber-stamps” who allow village and school administrations’ wishful spending direction, often to rousing chorus of “schools, school, schools” for yet another school funding referendum. I’ve seen little meaningful “belt-tightening” in my leafy OPRF suburb here. (I watch this RE tax/budget issue fairly closely.)
Factor orthodontia, camp, nanny, ice hockey and piano lessons, family reunions and weddings a flight away, and monthly net income feels really stretched. Compound that with a wife/mother who finds it harder and harder to cope with working, middle-school homework, aging parents, and household management, and wants/needs to stay-home, and it gets more precarious yet.
Our home’s taxes have doubled in 7 years, despite annual supposedly successful tax protestations, without any construction work done.
probably been discussed before but how long is the response time for contesting taxes. Would not want to buy a place assuming to have my bill changed.
Great place for kids, especially if they can get into Madison.
Phil, can I ask why you passed on this house?
I am starting to like this house.
Regarding suburban spending habits, Family Taxpayers Foundation tracks salaries at school districts. My son’s middle-school gym teacher earned $135,000 salary plus benefits, etc. He’s one of many six-figure middle-school teachers and administrators here.
Many suburbs provide take-home cars for unrestricted use, unlimited gas and car maintenance, credit cards for meals, etc to their senior and mid-level administrators. Always worth checking into the perk list, which extends well beyond “80% salary” pensions and inexpensive health insurance coverage. Oak Park even provided a house at below-market rent to its village manager, in addition to a $200,000 salary, perks, etc.
“Fair enough, although the taxes for this place are surely influenced by the prior sale (certainly park ridge taxes generally seem higher) and is it clear that taxes are going up more in park ridge than chicago?”
only used the taxes as a tangible factor. But one aspect that may blow over peoples heads if not knowing about the area’s in question…I would much rather have the typical edison parker has my neighbor and immediate community social interaction than deal with a typical Park Ridgian on a daily basis.
but thats more about a persons jag-off tolerance level and is subjective. so not as tangible as YOUR TAXES WILL ALWAYS GO UP!
What’s Madison?
For the reasons Architect outlines, I expect rising property taxes to have a significant adverse impact on property values in the years to come, particularly in areas where property taxes are already unreasonably high. As the taxes go up and as rates go up (whenever that happens), prices will have to go down to remain in the realm of affordability.
Despite significant tax assessment adjustments, the new assessment always bounces back even higher. Process takes several months, and appealing the valuation affects the future (not current) tax bill for that new evaluation. New assessments have been issued for OPRF recently, adjusting everyone’s valuation amount. I’d expect same to occur in Park Ridge shortly. Don’t expect to buy a house valued in 2008 at $800,000 and purchased in 2011 at $500,000 to experience a significant decrease in RE tax bill. In fact, even with re-assessment, I’d expect bill amount to go UP.
Tax attorney recently told me that suburban property tax assessment valuations also factor in amount of revenue that suburb’s taxing districts need. Like alchemy. Residential single-family valuations are disproportionately higher in the leafy suburbs than Chicago, for instance, because Chicago has a much larger and diverse tax-base, and because the leafy suburbs have higher spending expectations on a per capita/household basis.
“probably been discussed before but how long is the response time for contesting taxes. Would not want to buy a place assuming to have my bill changed.”
Talk to a good property tax appellate lawyer FIRST. In Chicago, the different “townships” have different deadlines and timing.
I feel like a few hundred bucks spent on staging and re-photographing this place is all it needs (and those white appliances need to go). It’s a great house, especially compared to the place in Edgebrook my friends paid the same amount for a year ago, but the listing does it no justice whatsoever.The taxes are a little insane but as a % of the price they are pretty much in line with my Lake County taxes. I’d probably take this over a $500k place in Lake Forest, that’s for sure.
Those $14K taxes are already old news. They are the 2009/pay10 taxes based on the $717,230 assessor’s MV for 2009. The 2010 assessor’s MV has already been reduced to $517,690, so 2010/pay11 taxes will be around $9800 with HO exemption.
“I’d expect same to occur in Park Ridge shortly”
You shouldn’t. 2010 was the reassessment year and it will be good for bills payable in 2011, 2012 and 2013.
“The 2010 assessor’s MV has already been reduced to $517,690, so 2010/pay11 taxes will be around $9800 with HO exemption.”
not bad, but you still have to deal with the park ridgians that surround you. that cannot be valued.
“leafy suburbs have higher spending expectations on a per capita/household basis.”
Yes, architect. We know. That’s why people pay a premium to live in nice areas. If you left OP/RF for a crappier area you’d probably still be here bitching about private school tuition going UP and UP every year, just like your taxes.
There’s no free lunches. If you want to live in a nice area, have good schools for your kids, not have to deal with wildings and gangbangers, then pay up.
“so 2010/pay11 taxes will be around $9800 with HO exemption.”
So same as that converted storefront 3BR in North Center.
hmmmm.
“There’s no free lunches. ”
Yes there are in some places. Look at the flippers/investors who pay x cash for a unit, sink y into it and turn around and resell it for (x + y) * 1.4.
There does seem to be some “free lunch” when it comes to turn key properties.
“There’s no free lunches. If you want to live in a nice area, have good schools for your kids, not have to deal with wildings and gangbangers, then pay up.”
The issue is when taxes continue to go up while incomes remain largely flat, making the communities increasingly unaffordable.
CORRECTION
Architect (and everyone else), my apologies. I read the reduction as due to appeal. However, that doesn’t appear to be the case. The assessor did appear to make blanket reductions in the area. I don’t know if he did it for everything in the taxing district, so no telling yet what the outcome will be. My bet is a reduction from $14K, but certainly not down to my erroneous $9800 estimate.
Once again, sorry for my confusion. It will be very interesting to see where the tax rate ends up on this one. The 2009 rate was 6.352% of equalized assessed value, which isn’t that bad (Chicago was 4.627%.) We should know the 2010 rate by late summer.
“What’s Madison?”
The home of beautiful Lake Mendota!
As an actual renter of this home, I feel compelled to defend it; simply because it’s a beautiful, spacious home for a family. We rented here for a time last year, and then bought our home in a nearby location.
Things I loved: Location. Walk to schools, parks, downtown, train, etc. Can’t beat it. Close to my job, close to highways / airport.
House: Beautiful woodwork throughout, gorgeous floors, lots of natural light, great care taken of house/all things related, so much kitchen storage I couldn’t fill it all, very nice bathrooms (just paint if you don’t like the color), great layout for entertaining, very large built in refrigerator, and I could go on and on. We didn’t buy it simply because it wasn’t in our price range. It kills me to see it drop so low – whoever buys it will get a great home.
If you don’t like Park Ridge, as I have noticed many Chatters don’t, that’s ok. After living here for a few years, it has its good and bad points, for sure. And so far, the many nice people I’ve met have far out-numbered the jerks, which is a similar experience to my 44+ years living in the Chicago city limits.
disappointing
“The issue is when taxes continue to go up while incomes remain largely flat, making the communities increasingly unaffordable.”
Private school tuition keeps going up as well. So the relative affordability between high-tax RE in good school districts and lower-tax RE that requires private school might not change over time.
SoPoCo…was thinking the same. We pay 11K in taxes in Chicago and still have to pay private tuition. 14K is not that bad if you have 2 kids…you’d pay more than that in tuition in the city if your darling does not get admitted to a public, selective enrollment school. If you want cheap but decent, move to Birmingham, AL or Atlanta. I can’t think of peer cities that are cheaper.
“you still have to deal with the park ridgians that surround you”
Um, that’s worse than k’worth?
“As an actual renter of this home, I feel compelled to defend it”
These are actually pretty positive comments (grading on the cribchatter curve) about the house itself.
Mary,
I agree with everything you said. I am starting to love this house, and I am generally a “hater” or a “bear” or whatever you want to call it.
Why do you think it hasn’t sold? Can I ask how much you think it rents for these days?
“If you want cheap but decent, move to Birmingham, AL or Atlanta. I can’t think of peer cities that are cheaper.”
Population-wise Houston is a peer city. In fact likely set to overtake Chicago in population by the 2020 census. But I’m guessing your definition of “peer” includes some snooty qualitative criteria.
“Private school tuition keeps going up as well. So the relative affordability between high-tax RE in good school districts and lower-tax RE that requires private school might not change over time.”
I’m not arguing that private school tuition isn’t going up. I’m saying that households in the heavily taxes communities grow frustrated when they’re expected to tighten their belts while government continues to increase spending. If government held spending at a constant level or decreased spending, taxes would presumably stay the same or decrease as well.
“Bob – Population-wise Houston is a peer city. In fact likely set to overtake Chicago in population by the 2020 census. But I’m guessing your definition of “peer” includes some snooty qualitative criteria.”
You would be right. I don’t consider Houston a “peer” at least culturally and artistically…if you consider that “snooty” then so be it.
I’ve heard Houston has no zoning regulations. That must be interesting.
Houston isn’t even a peer of Austin.
But, Red G., they do have very extensive land use development controls. Just not actual “Zoning” as a legal construct from Ambler Realty v Euclid, OH (the USSC case that validated the “traditional” zoning process for land use regualtion via police power)
interestingly Houston seems to have no housing bubble or burst. I wonder why?
SoPoCo Lurker,
I don’t know what the current rent is, but our rent was pretty high (at least by my standards, with husband in full-time grad school at the time).
Why hasn’t it sold? Probably because there are so many houses like this for sale in P.R. right now; and because the kitchen is on the small side. However I hosted many large family gatherings and managed just fine.
“Houston isn’t even a peer of Austin.”
Indeed. Austin is a po-dunk college town that got lucky due to AMD and other silicon-alley type businesses. Houston is three times bigger.
honestly if we want to get the deficit under control taxes have to go up, but man that is like blasphemy to most Americans.
“interestingly Houston seems to have no housing bubble or burst. I wonder why?”
People like local who say “Oh I’m willing to pay for ‘culture’ and ‘art’ so I’ll drop X+20% over last sale price either don’t exist there or are quickly ridiculed out of those parts.
“honestly if we want to get the deficit under control taxes have to go up, but man that is like blasphemy to most Americans.”
That or cut spending.
Actually, both need to happen. Taxes will need to go up significantly and spending will need to go down significantly.
both for sure.
“I’ve heard Houston has no zoning regulations. That must be interesting.”
It does. Every strip club must have a steak house next to it. Other than that, anything goes. Can’t compare Chicago to Houston, but Houston is a cool place too. A guys town.
“Houston seems to have no housing bubble or burst. I wonder why?”
Say ENERGY… but for your history of American real estate bubbles did they ever have a monster of a big blowout back in the 80’s.
“My son’s middle-school gym teacher earned $135,000 salary plus benefits”
Speechless… I can hire the top 4 engineering students from the best Univerity in Rio for that, all of whom are shocked they can now make that much. Manufacturing cycle should recover shortly in the U.S., jobs returning, I am sure. cough.. cough..
miumiu:
Also, Texas has some pretty unusual mortgage regulations, which may have reduced some more irresponsible borrowing/lending.
SoPoCo Lurker-
Mary can corroborate, but master bed is on first floor with 3 bedrooms up; fine with me but the wife wasn’t thrilled. Kitchen is small, needs some updating as well as some other rooms. Personally, I think the positives far outweigh the negatives if the inspection is clean. Great area if you have a young family.
Wife is giving CPS one more year so we’re staying in the city.
SoPoCo Lurker-
Mary can corroborate, but master bed is on first floor with 3 bedrooms up; fine with me but the wife wasn’t thrilled. Kitchen is small, needs some updating as well as some other rooms. Personally, I think the positives far outweigh the negatives if the inspection is clean. Great area if you have a young family.
Wife is giving CPS one more year so we’re staying in the city.
Agree with Phil 100% on all points. With my small family, we used the first floor master bedroom as a family room. Would also like to mention I grew up in Edison Park, and had some great times there as a kid. That is another great option if you are looking to stay in the city. However it does not have hipster cachet, just lots of cop/fireman families who need some serious peace and quiet, along with a few good restaurants and grocery stores. Also about as far away from the GZ vibe as one can get and still claim city cred.
nat,
yep, i remember when they fought to remove restrictions of home equity loans. I did see good price increases though in the primest of areas inside the inner loop. Never saw a place with so many nice homes for so inexpensive.
“but for your history of American real estate bubbles did they ever have a monster of a big blowout back in the 80’s.”
You ain’t kidding. My first RE was part of a bulk purchase of units in an empty new construction condo bldg in Houston in the mid-80’s. I stepped into the deal that was already underway by the company I went to work for in NYC. 2BR units in the $30k range.
Mary- are there a lot of young families that rent in Park Ridge? I would be surprised if one can rent a similar house for less than this mortgaged.
Sabrina – Thanks for posting a P.R. home. I’m really busy today but could not pass this one up!
First I agree with Mary as I have been in this home. It is nice and could be a really great option for a growing family. It is not my style but is an EXCELLENT location. A great grade school right up the street. The PR Country Club for those so inclined and a decent downtown and quick Metra ride from the city center. PR has many things to offer!
Second Craig TInder is an exceptional RE professional. Yes I said RE professional and as the regular CC’ers know I do not offer that comment to many agents.
Finally it is not selling as there are much better deals in that immediate area. Check out these two comps. Both also nice options. I really liked the deal of 518 Elmore and might have actually put in a bid had I sold my place in the city.
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Park-Ridge/Undisclosed-address-60068/home/13652499
http://www.redfin.com/IL/Park-Ridge/321-Elmore-St-60068/home/13650993
The owner might have to keep renting as I do not see this selling anywhere near current ask.
FInally on TAXES.
Let me just point out that you pay for what you get and you get what you pay for…. Schools, parks, programs, and low crime are just a few of the amenities in that area. PR Is not without issue or problems however the area will remain attractive due to proximity to the Metra and the easy commute to Downtown, North Shore, NW burtbs, O’Hare and Rosemont, etc.
It hasn’t sold because the monthly nut is higher than what today’s buyer is willing to pay. I whole heartedly agree with Architect. I have my own budget and and I do budgets everyday and a 400k mortgage plus 1200 taxes plus 2 cars, gas, insurance, increased utility bills, daycare, orthodontics, vacations make this home too much of a stretch for a the 100k to 200k household. There are just too many homes and not enough 100k households to buy them all.
Phil,
I don’t know if many young families rent in PR. It seemed as if we were the only family renting at the time (2008-2010); but now it seems much more commonplace. If you look on craigslist, you might find similar homes for rent in the area.
Our mortgage now is less than the rent at 313, however our home is nowhere near the size of this house.
“You ain’t kidding. My first RE was part of a bulk purchase of units in an empty new construction condo bldg in Houston in the mid-80’s. I stepped into the deal that was already underway by the company I went to work for in NYC. 2BR units in the $30k range.”
And the ostriches refuse to realize what happened to the Houston economy in the 1980s is now happening to the rest of the country’s economy.
“I whole heartedly”
That would be a funny thing to make miu miu say.
why ze?
“It hasn’t sold because the monthly nut is higher than what today’s buyer is willing to pay.”
My first comment is pending moderation because of two links however I would also point out that several homes within half a mile of this address have CLOSED over 700K in the last 12 months. Some buyers are clearly more than comfortable with even higher price points in their budgets.
very good buddy of mine still gets his l’s and r’s messed up all the time… made me think of him reading something where “Clinton whole”… still makes me laugh to this day.
Well then JP3 how many have sold LESS than this house. And iirc I showed a few months back that a majority of the lower priced park ridge homes are fha 3.5% down financed…
I still think people without kids should get tax breaks for not using up extra public resources. I’m glad I live in a tif district, so very little of the money is wasted on the schools… Although, I would gladly pay for more police and nice parks.
“I still think people without kids should get tax breaks for not using up extra public resources.”
Yeah, and I think that people with kids should not have to pay FICA, because they’re providing future earners to support the system.
There’s a societal reason for public education; if you don’t like it, move to a poor 3d world country.
There’s a societal reason for public education; if you don’t like it, move to a poor 3d world country.
Best Universities down here are Federal, straight up score acceptance, completely paid for. Only the best can get in though, so system funny enough supports the rich.
Oh and you can stay there… 3rd world is on its way… 135k + for a gym teacher.. paid for with borrowed money….soooooo screwed.
that was just an fyi.. anon.. i know that you know that I know that you know that this is now a developing country and not a poor one anymore.
“Well then JP3 how many have sold LESS than this house. And iirc I showed a few months back that a majority of the lower priced park ridge homes are fha 3.5% down financed”
Homedelete – My first comment is still in moderation because of links to actual sold homes that were both priced below this one. I agree that this is stuck due to pricing issues but wanted to point out that there are others that think the former 1.5M house is too much and are “settling” for the home at 700K to 900K to also make ends meet though they would never admit that fact.
“I’m glad I live in a tif district, so very little of the money is wasted on the schools… Although, I would gladly pay for more police and nice parks.”
Which makes sense and is only fair, seeing as most police officers and parks workers attended private schools for K – 12, of course, as do the children of most police officers and parks workers.
“The 2009 rate was 6.352% of equalized assessed value, which isn’t that bad (Chicago was 4.627%.) We should know the 2010 rate by late summer.”
G – WTF are you talking about?!!! 6.352% “isn’t bad”?!!!!! That means, for a million dollar house taxes would be 21,152!!!! Compare that to Oak Brook’s 2.895% tax – for a million dollar house, taxes would be 9640. Oh, and Oak Brook’s schools are MUCH better than Park Ridge.
“that was just an fyi.. anon..”
And you know that i know that you know that I know that you didn’t move because you object to paying for public education via taxation.
“paid for with borrowed money”
Yeah, that’s the real problem. Paying for things with minimal future return by borrowing from the future.
I see. Assuming I am japanese you’d make sense : )
“The 2009 rate was 6.352% of equalized assessed value, which isn’t that bad (Chicago was 4.627%.) We should know the 2010 rate by late summer.”
G – WTF are you talking about?!!! You think 6.352% “isn’t bad”?!!!!! That means, for a million dollar house taxes would be 21,152!!!! Compare that to Oak Brook’s 2.895% tax – for a million dollar house, taxes would be 9640. Oh, and Oak Brook’s schools are MUCH better than Park Ridge.
Actually 3rd world countries have pretty good public education system. You’d be surprised how much better educated those kids are than high school grads here.
“I’m glad I live in a tif district, so very little of the money is wasted on the schools”
Jenny – perhaps you misunderstood the idea of TIF. TIF stands for Tax increment financing. They get a base level of assessed value established and then any “incremental” assessed value and the accompanying additional tax dollars brought in over a 23 year period can be earmarked toward specific or general improvements to be used in that neighborhood. The incremental dollars are spent just as you had suggested although they could easily be used to improve a school. That previous “base level” of assessed valued would still be sent toward the normal school allotment.
The downside is that it shortchanges the district over two decades which will not help attract new residents with school aged children. In general this leads to decreased rental demand and lower property values. Did you ever notice how much debate goes on at CC by people arguing over what street ends the mediocre school and starts a more favorable school. That has a profound effect on pricing!
Maybe I would feel differently if I thought the public schools (or for that matter, schools in general) were doing a good job… I attended private schools and even then I feel like my parents ended up teaching me more on their own than I learned in school. I do not believe I learned much in Pre-K through 8th. It was just a waste of time and an all-day babysitter.
If do end up having kids, I’ll most likely send them to one of those ultra-liberal schools where the kids are only “taught” if they so choose.
Jenny, please don’t have kids….
Jenny – I’m guessing that you are in your mid twenties….. I never ask a womans age but after your comments today I find myself very curious. Am I pretty close or way off?
I siuuggest that you have as many kids as you like though be prepared to have them change your life outlook and perhaps a few long held opinions. My almost two year old daughter has changed my outlook on many a topic! It’s really a great thing and perhaps one day you will see what I mean.
I found it funny that Clio who attended some pretty liberal schools (Lab school, U of C, and Stanford if I am recall correctly is calling you out for picking a liberal school to teach your kids.
JP3, I suppose there’s a trade off that’s difficult to quantify. I live in University Village (I know, I know..cookie cutter, boring and most of the TIF dollars go to UIC, which is a public school, but at least it’s a college). The neighborhood public school is abysmal and people tend to either find a magnet school or send their kids to private school. Although, there aren’t a huge number of school age kids living in the area to begin with.
For me, lower taxes are one part of the reason I would never leave the city. Lower property taxes mean I can afford a larger place to live. If a nice CPS school comes to this area, I will be curious to see whether home values go up. Although, I don’t really care since I plan to stay here forever (as long as the neighborhood remains stable anyway).
Heh… I actually attended Lab School for high school. I admit the education was top notch, but it still wasn’t educationally liberal enough for me!
(JP3, you are in the ballpark as to my age.)
“I don’t really care since I plan to stay here forever (as long as the neighborhood remains stable anyway).”
It’s rare that college neighborhoods de-gentrify. Other than Hyde Park during the 1960s-70s I can’t think of another example.
“Actually 3rd world countries have pretty good public education system.”
I was thinking of the sorts of 3d world countries where you and Jenny might get killed for trying to go past the 8th grade.
And yes, the (relatively) wealthy of the third world do get fine educations, and “better” ones than “typical” kids here. You’re considering a self-selected sample.
JP3 and Jenny, as someone in my mid 40s, I now realize all the mumbo jumbo liberal bullshit they teach is just that – bs. As you get older, you start to realize the shaky foundation that liberalism is built upon – also you begin to realize the parallels to socialism. More importantly, you begin to realize why it isn’t good to be too liberal (as a society or as an individual). The achievers in the world are not true liberals period – True liberals hardly achieve anything (except for disturbing the world order).
I beg to differ anon, believe me barring Afghanistan, middle eastern kids are very well educated, even places like Pakistan have great public schools that are free so it is not for the rich. Same as north Africa. I was surprised how strong some of these kids are.
“True liberals hardly achieve anything ”
Cite, please. Defining characteristics of a “true liberal” would do.
Yes Clio, because Hitler, Franco, Pinochet, Ahmadinejad were (are) all true liberals.
“I beg to differ anon, believe me barring Afghanistan, middle eastern kids are very well educated, even places like Pakistan have great public schools that are free so it is not for the rich. Same as north Africa. I was surprised how strong some of these kids are.”
So, you went to the slums, the rural areas, the small towns, and interacted with the poorest of the poor? And you’re comparing them to the average kids here?
Or are you thinking of the CPS warehouse schools and comparing them to the schools and children of the wealthiest/smartest 20% of [country X]?
If the latter (which I suspect), then, yeah, no doubt. And they *all* have a better system, not putting kids who will end up with phds on the same track as those who will barely finish grade 12.
And, most of the “middle east” and north africa ain’t third world, at least for their citizens. Know any palestinian laborers’ kids in Bahrain?
“I beg to differ anon, believe me barring Afghanistan, middle eastern kids are very well educated, even places like Pakistan have great public schools that are free so it is not for the rich. Same as north Africa. I was surprised how strong some of these kids are.”
now you’re just talking out your ass
this is so untrue I don’t even know where to start, but there is a HUGE reason why 99% of the smart people there come here to learn
“I was surprised how strong some of these kids are.”
ps: I wouldn’t be at all surprised that “some” of the kids are really intellectually strong–people are people, everywhere, and there is always a smart set. The question is, is the system *broad* enough to find and encourage the smart set among the otherwise un-privileged and un-connected. The USA can certainly do a better job at that, but it’s hardly as dire as portrayed.
oh good lord.. here comes another argument at the extremes…and erection day (japanese version miu) still 18 months to go.. back to watchin my silly movie.
I am seeing the top students here and the top ones from across the ocean and no matter which ocean they come from, I’ll take the ones across the pound any day, especially when math skills are concerned. Now in terms of creativity and independent thinking I have to say I have been very impressed with the top students here.
“this is so untrue I don’t even know where to start, but there is a HUGE reason why 99% of the smart people there come here to learn”
Like I said, I don’t think that miumiu is talking about the Englewood of Damascus, or the Appalachian Hollow of Morocco.
anon.. Costa Rica… always surprised me.. very poor and very broadly literate… literate definitely makes even poor places safer. Good people there.
“I am seeing the top students here and the top ones from across the ocean and no matter which ocean they come from, I’ll take the ones across the pound any day, especially when math skills are concerned.”
Knew it. Knew it. Knew it.
I was talking about education for all, you were talking about non-US students with the combination of sufficient smarts, drive, money and connections to study for a degree overseas (something that, even if the best universities were all non-US, relatively few US students would be doing). Apples and frickin’ orangutans. No comparison.
“anon.. Costa Rica… always surprised me.. very poor and very broadly literate… literate definitely makes even poor places safer. Good people there.”
Yeah, check the Costa Rica Constitution on the subject:
“”Primary education and general basic education are compulsory. Though the system is said to be free, many cannot afford the required uniforms and rural schools have no books for students. The length of time daily spent in school is 3.5 hours since the school class schedule is divided into two sessions in order to accommodate the students. Those levels and the diversified education level are, in the public system, free and supported by the Nation. Public expenditure in State education, including higher education, shall not be less than sixteen percent (16%) per annum of the gross domestic product, pursuant to law, notwithstanding the provisions of Articles 84 and 85 of this Constitution. The State shall facilitate the pursuit of higher studies by persons who lack monetary resources. The Ministry of Public Education, through the organization established by law, shall be in charge of awarding scholarships and assistance.””
16% of **GDP** as a minimum!! Imagine how much gym teachers would make then!!
The higher education in this country is superb and no doubt leading the world by a long distance. I have no data about the broad thing so I don’t want to BS but honestly I am not convinced factoring all the crappy schools here (just think about the drop out rate), the k12 here is better than Morocco. At least they had the rigorous french education and difficult classes. The high school math taught in this country makes me laugh. It is covered in middle school in most other places : )
I am not going to argue more on this as I don’t have data and it is just my feeling which can be way off and I don’t like arguing about stuff I have no data to support.
ps:
Numbers I find (but don’t totally trust) show aggregate US education spending at something less than 7.5% of GDP.
“I am not convinced factoring all the crappy schools here … the k12 here is better than Morocco”
Check the total HS grad rate for Morocco, or wherever. (Morocco is, at worst 2.5 world, anywho).
From wiki:
“The dropout rates at the primary level in 2006 was 22 percent.”
KNow any district in the USA where 22% dropout before age *12*?
“The gross enrollment rate at the secondary level in 2007 was 55.8 percent. But in secondary education the grade repetition and drop-out rates especially remain high. Also the gender parity index for GER for secondary was 0.86 in 2007”
So, 44.2% *don’t even attend* after 9 years. And the non-attendance skews heavily toward girls.
Look, you want to contend that the [New Trier/Hinsdale Central/whatever] class of public school in Morocco is far better than the [New Trier/Hinsdale Central/whatever] version here. Fine. I’ll even go so far as to grant it as fact (w/o any data).
That does *NOT* make the educational system better. Just like the *FACT* that (among) the “best” HS in Illinois are Northside, Payton, Young doesn’t make the CPS system better than Naperville’s.
sure anon, then I must be wrong.
I guess my view point was tainted by higher education, FYI:
http://www.newsweek.com/2008/08/08/the-star-students-of-the-islamic-republic.html
Costa Rica thing was interesting. btw.. you are arguing with miu (understandably) over something that with ever so slight alterations (comparing top tier vs top tier- which I agree is a dumbf**k absolutely ridiculous thing to do) you have agreed with me/her on. Way too many Americans can’t make change for a $10 w/o a register.
“I guess my view point was tainted by higher education, FYI”
Like I said, at the high end, sure, no necessary argument on that point.
“you are arguing with miu … over something that with ever so slight alterations … you have agreed with me/her on. ”
Actually, I think we were mostly talking past each other.
“Way too many Americans can’t make change for a $10 w/o a register.”
Yeah, too true. Hence, outsized returns for the numerate!
Another thing to bear in mind is that given differences in the way secondary and college or univ study is set in e.g. US v UK, the degree of preparation of students (e.g. top students but not true superstars for which the structure matters less) coming out of undergrad is very different.
““Way too many Americans can’t make change for a $10 w/o a register.”
Yeah, too true. Hence, outsized returns for the numerate!”
ps: The one time I gave some kid too much change (extra $1) when I was 16 still haunts me.
“Yeah, too true. Hence, outsized returns for the numerate!”
It’s actually the people that think the world *has* to fit into their math, thus leading to the belief things must ‘return’ to their model that scare the piss outta me more than anyone else. Give me a good unstructured *open* logical mind over raw intelligence any day, I will bet that way 1,000’s and 1,000’s of times over and over again.
“It’s actually the people that think the world *has* to fit into their math, thus leading to the belief things must ‘return’ to their model that scare the piss outta me more than anyone else.”
Hence your (subtly implied) distaste for the astrophysicists on the street?
I just defined LTCM w/o realizing it. Perfect example, Nobel math level, everyone uses the math developed by them as a tool to get close to representing the market (often modified).
They believed they had a closed defining model way after everyone knew otherwise, so sure of their superior intelligence, despite the obvious. Kablooey!!
“Hence your (subtly implied) distaste for the astrophysicists on the street?”
Yes, it’s a tool and it’s close but it’s wrong and people hate accepting that.
actuarial background even worse… always blending normalcy into chaos, when it’sat a minimum safer to do the exact opposite. That leads to people suggesting a new company can insure your homes downside for 1% since over the last ten yrs home prices are up 2%, and totally miss the past 2-3 yrs.
“people hate accepting that.”
Well they are g’damn rocket scientists, so they should be right! Especially if you give them that much money to crunch numbers.
“For me, lower taxes are one part of the reason I would never leave the city. Lower property taxes mean I can afford a larger place to live.”
It’s true, I’ve saved a ton of money on scheduled maintenance since I replaced the 2005 Accord with a 2010 V10 R8, since the R8 has free included maintenance.
Also, if you think you’re benefited by society spending less money on public schools since you went to private school and got a better education (other than on basic logic and critical thinking), your thinking is incredibly short-sighted.
You have to be kind of an idiot to accept a right-wing media forcefed version of “liberalism” or “conservatism” or other basic concepts like that. To turn what are intended to be objective labels of political ideologies into slurs isn’t really accretive to the quality or scope of public discourse. It’s one thing to have honest views about how things should be or shouldn’t be but anyone who uses a generic political label as a slur needs to learn how to think independently.
I can’t stand people who parrot political views without being able to explain what they advocate and why they feel that way. It’s like talking to my in-laws who pay virtually no federal income tax and are complaining about how “Obama’s” taxes are too high and claim it’s in their own rational self-interest to be part of the Tea Party, I suppose on the expectation that they’re going to suddenly have millions of dollars in income a year.
““Way too many Americans can’t make change for a $10 w/o a register.”
I was just in a fast food restaurant and my meal was $7.65. I gave the cashier a $10 bill. She accidentally put $20 into the cash register.
She realized her mistake. But then suddenly she whipped out her iPhone out of her back pocket- which has the calculator on it- and put in $10 minus the $7.65 to realize that she only owned me $2.35- and NOT the $12.35 the cashier was telling her to give me.
I stood there stunned.
The cashier had no idea that all she had to do was subtract $10. Her brain had no way to “figure it out” without the cash register or the calculator.
JJJ – haa haa nice analogy on the Audi reference that was funny!
I do however support a voucher system for k-12 parents that elect to send their children to private school. It would encourage parents on the cusp of private vs public go go private. That system would also encourage additional private investment dollars in the sector, create greater competition for results, and improve options in poor neighborhoods. In the end those students win, parents win, teachers win, and society as a whole benefits.
Our public education system is on the brink of collapse, many schools are over crowded, and many of the buildings are in poor condition. This would help all three issues.
“anon.. Costa Rica… always surprised me.. very poor and very broadly literate… literate definitely makes even poor places safer. Good people there.”
Ze- costa rica has a 96% literacy rate. Very impressive.
But they’re not exactly “poor.” They have the highest PPP in their immediate region.
Some comparisons:
China $4900
Peru $7300
Brazil $9400
Costa Rica $10,800
Mexico $13,900
Ze- it’s interesting you are saying the US can’t compete with Brazil in some areas like engineering etc. 60 Minutes had on one of Brazil’s richest entreprenuers a few months ago (I don’t remember who it was now)- who said that there aren’t enough qualified engineers in Brazil to do the work so they are hiring Americans and bringing them down to do it (and it was one of the things he said Brazil needed to work on.) I think he may have been in the oil/gas industry.
It reminds me of the problem with China. They are graduating several million “engineers” a year- but western companies have said that only like 10% are even qualified to do the work at western standards. They simply aren’t trained the same way.
“There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.” ~ Twain
I hate numbers games. Gross.
Sabrina, the comedian Sinbad pretty much sums up the state of our education in this clip…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAWv-Mv1V_8
My biggest concerns about vouchers are that they’ll basically be a further huge public subsidy of religious groups and fringe groups and that they’ll have some extremely negative effects of many kids. But I do generally agree that the education bubble and the government employee bubble (at least, as it relates to unfunded future pension and medical costs) should be the two of the next five bubbles to pop in the country (along with, off the top of my head, the gold bubble, the x.0/entrepreneurship bubble and the social media valuation bubble).
Anyway, it’s an American ideal that it’s the schools’ responsibilities to teach our kids. I can’t quite puzzle out whether that’s increased in the last few decades or I just realize it more now.
I ran a register for a high-volume cash business one summer many years ago, and we used to pride ourselves on having drawers accurate down to the penny.
i’m almost 100% certain that this is the same block that hillary clinton lived on in the early to mid ’60s.she even wrote that book about it.anybody else recall that?
The problem with vouchers for private school (in Chicago at least) is that the only schools they will open up are religious ones. There aren’t any non-religious private schools in Chicago under $14k a year, and no voucher is going to cover that kind of cash.
why do people care about educating kids – the way I see it – the more ignorant and helpless you are in this country, the more you are taken care of (housing/food subsidies, welfare, unemployment, free healthcare, free time). Also, if you are slow, you won’t get as irritated with stupid people. Take sabrina’s example of the cashier that couldn’t figure out a simple math equation – who was irritated with that interaction (not the cashier) – so if you want your kids to be happy, keep them uneducated and poor. They will thank you later!!!
do you take medicaid patients clio?
“do you take medicaid patients clio?”
Doesn’t everybody pretty much have to nowadays? No worries. Most people on medicaid totally deserve it, along with the subsidized housing, food stamps, and free education for their kids they end up getting.
( sarcasm )
“do you take medicaid patients clio?”
absolutely – medicaid pays poorly – but it DOES pay something. More shocking is that I also am forced to do procedures on people with no insurance (who come through the er) and never pay. It gets worse though – not only do I NOT get paid for doing procedures on these people, I take on 100% liability. THERE IS NOT ONE OTHER FUCKING FIELD/BUSINESS/JOB in the world in which you are forced to do something for free AND accept 100% liability – NOT ONE FUCKING PROFESSION – not even prisoners who are forced to work for free are subject to this. and HD – I have your profession to thank for this. All I can say is that “karma’s a bitch” – have fun in your cramped rental!!!
“I beg to differ anon, believe me barring Afghanistan, middle eastern kids are very well educated, even places like Pakistan have great public schools that are free so it is not for the rich. Same as north Africa. I was surprised how strong some of these kids are”
Um. no. the schools in pakistan are a craphole. Even the private schools are. Only the super rich can afford to send their kids abroad or to the few decent private high schools and colleges within the country.
The middle east on the other hand, is a big place. Can’t compare the education of a kid from Dubai to one from Saudi, or Syria, or Jordan, for that matter.
“Ze- it’s interesting you are saying the US can’t compete with Brazil in some areas like engineering etc.”
It appears you misunderstood. I was comparing the 30-40k a yr top in their class engineering grad student in Rio to a 135k+ a yr gym coach.
I’ll take most anyone at MIT or Cal Tech over most anyone down here anyday…
Just watched the video.. excellent video, beautiful shots. Nothing I would disagree with. What is going on here, I have never seen before. Eike is the 8th wealthiest man in the world right now and like he said, laughing throughout “why fight a war, let’s go to the beach, drink a beer”. No one is serious here.
One mistake with the video. My view is much nicer than his. He is unfortunately on the East side of the lake. I swear I need to learn to translate into Portuguese “that’s not really the real Ipanema” Someone has to teach these people.
“It’s true, I’ve saved a ton of money on scheduled maintenance since I replaced the 2005 Accord with a 2010 V10 R8, since the R8 has free included maintenance.”
Does it? I scoped one out at fletcher jones last week and i specifically remember him saying it didn’t come with a maintenance plan..anyways, i think i missed the point here.
Clio keeping it so real
I definitely feel bad for doctors with ridiculous malpractice law suits they have to deal with. It actually even adversely affects the patients. Think about something like child birth, poor Obs are so afraid something may go wrong that they have deprived women of a natural child birth, constantly inducing labor, augmenting, active third stage management of the labor and so on. It sucks for the doctor and the patients.
Hillary Clinton dod grow up in the area. There used to be a Rodham corner sign at the itnersection. It’s a really odd intersection because no matter which direction you are driving you can only turn left. I heard that they are adding a toll booth to collect more taxes.
Jennifer – the voucher would not cover all costs but it would subsidize enough to make it more accessible to many additional students/families that are willing to make education a priority. Also there would be many private investment dollars entering the space. It would not be limited to religious and ransoms. Don’t you think that a business model could be created for areas with failing schools that have lower cost real estate and non union teachers. I sure do and I come from a family of CPS teachers.
CORRECTED DUE TO BAD KEYBOARDING:
Consider yourselves lucky.
In nearly any part of southern California, from the Santa Barbara County line in the north and west to San Diego (say 240 miles) and from the Pacific as far east inland as San Bernadino County (110 miles), other than in obvious places like Compton or East L.A., this house would get listed — and sold — for considerably more than $1 million (I live in a fairly common 1980s tract home, 4 bed, 3 bath, 2700 sq ft. that was listed at over $900K).
And the $14K in property taxes would be viewed as a gift from the angels.
“not bad, but you still have to deal with the park ridgians that surround you. that cannot be valued.”
“I’d rather have thieves than neighbors. Thieves only want your things–neighbors want your time!” –Larry David
Hate Park Ridge. Close to uptown?? Uptown Des Plaines maybe!
thank you chicagoinla – most chicagoans have NO clue how cheap housing and taxes are here. Not only in california are prices higher – but try anywhere up and down the east coast. Chicago is a frickin’ bargain – of course the east and west coasts are much nicer places to live, but, for a big city, Chicago ain’t that bad. We should all count our blessings to live in such an affordable city – and to those who think it is unaffordable (ie, 99.9999% of cribchatter) why don’t you guys move to las vegas or kentucky
“of course the east and west coasts are much nicer places to live”
Who says?
It’s the same everywhere you live these days. Same restaurants. Same bookstores (those that are still in business.) Same movie chains. Same retail stores. Same supermarkets.
Is San Bruno any different than Berwyn?
Is Newark any different than Gary? (okay- maybe that one is stretching it.)
But I agree that Chicago IS a massive bargain compared with both coasts. The standard of living is SO much better here that that makes the lifestyle so much more enjoyable. You can live your life for other things other than just making a mortgage payment.
Clio, I’m socially liberal, but fiscally conservative. I guess I’m a bit of a libertarian. If kids choose to go to school and become educated fine… if they choose to do nothing, I’m fine with that too as long as we don’t give them welfare or public aid.
I still think schools in the US are better than schools in North Africa or the Middle East. Wealthy people from those countries send their kids to overseas boarding schools. My friend went to an international school in Asia and one of his classmates was Swaziland royalty. Even the best schools in the Middle East and all of Africa can’t compete with the best schools in Asia, the US, or Europe.
Clio, I’m socially liberal, but fiscally conservative. I guess I’m a bit of a libertarian. If kids choose to go to school and become educated fine… if they choose to do nothing, I’m fine with that too as long as we don’t give them welfare or public aid.
I still think schools in the US are better than schools in North Africa or the Middle East. Wealthy people from those countries send their kids to overseas boarding schools. My friend went to an international school in Asia and one of his classmates was Swaziland royalty. Even the best schools in the Middle East and all of Africa can’t compete with the best schools in Asia, the US, or Europe.
Clio, I’m socially liberal, but fiscally conservative. I guess I’m a bit of a libertarian. If kids choose to go to school and become educated fine… if they choose to do nothing, I’m fine with that too as long as we don’t give them welfare or public aid.
I still think schools in the US are better than schools in North Africa or the Middle East. Wealthy people from those countries send their kids to overseas boarding schools. My friend went to an international school in Asia and one of his classmates was Swaziland royalty. Even the best schools in the Middle East and all of Africa can’t compete with the best schools in Asia, the US, or Europe.
I’ll take back what I said before about not assailing specific ideologies to say that almost all libertarians are idiots.
“I’ll take back what I said before about not assailing specific ideologies to say that almost all libertarians are idiots.”
You are vested in one of the prevailing ideologies. Your dismissiveness and lashing out is likely very much connected with your net worth/status and not the long term benefit of a meritocratic society.
Let’s not talk politics or ideologies- okay? There are other blogs for that.
“Not only in california are prices higher – but try anywhere up and down the east coast.”
Housing is extremely affordable outside of the BoWash corridor and Florida. Basically Florida is full of retirees from the BoWash corridor and they’ve basically ruined it (outside of parts of NoFLA). The rest of the south you can get a mansion for a fraction of the price of Chicago.
Although, sadly, during the bubble it appears BoWash housing pricing has spread down to Richmond.
“the $14K in property taxes would be viewed as a gift from the angels.”
Um, Prop 13? There isnt *anyone* anywhere in Cali paying $14k in prop taxes on a house they paid $814k for unless they spent over $500k (and likely way over) improving it.
You dont need to make up obvious bs to make your point, even when the point is debateable.
CLIO:“of course the east and west coasts are much nicer places to live”
SABRINA : Who says? It’s the same everywhere you live these days. Same restaurants. Same bookstores (those that are still in business.) Same movie chains. Same retail stores. Same supermarkets.
Sabrina, the biggest difference is the mentality of the people – completely and totally different. East and West Coast people tend to be much more worldly, accepting of things, and not so concerned/anal about every little penny or concerned about how much is their house worth. Most that I have met will move when they think it is time and when they find a house they can afford – they are not AS mentally/psychologically affected by the downturn in the housing market as Chicagoans seem to be (even though financially they are – and maybe even more affected than Chicagoans). I think this is because they ARE more worldly and have a better global picture and understanding of life than the average chicagoan.
Jenny, one of the first things children need to be taught is that they are going to have to do many things in life to survive, that aren’t exactly what they would “choose” and that are “boring” or “tedious”- and at the age of 7 or so, those things might include sitting still for hours to learn how to read, write, and handle arithmetic. Most kids that age would way rather be playing with their dolls or their vid games. They’d rather eat candy than vegetables, would rather watch television or play games than do homework, and stay up until they drop than go to bed at a reasonable hour.
The idea that kids should choose their own curriculum, and order their lives according to their own whims, has wrecked our public schools. How well I remember the steep and rapid deterioration in test scores and achievement when the high schools in my area dropped their required courses after 1970, and let the students choose self-directed study in areas of their choosing instead. The vast majority of the kids took the bare minimum of required courses, which were way fewer than there had been, and spent the majority of the day horsing around in the library listening to music tapes. Let’s just face it, a child of 7 or , or even 14 or 15, lacks the judgement and knowledge to order his own life and needs to be directed if he is even to survive, let alone acquire the skills and knowledge he will need to succeed academically and later in life.
I was never a mother but I noticed that when I reached age 35 or so, that my thinking underwent a weird shift, and I strangely began thinking like a PARENT, and I’m now nostalgic for the public schools of my childhood. Yes, they were rigid and “boring” and tedious, but we emerged from the system literate and numeric. I and most of my 8th grade classmates from my overcrowded grade school (my class had 48 pupils) read at the 10th or 11th grade reading level when we entered high school. These days, we have millions of people graduating from the Sallie Mae-enabled diploma mills that call themselves colleges and charge $40K a year tuition, who cannot read at the 8th grade level or divide a round number by 10 without the aid of a calculator.
“divide a round number by 10”
Yeah, people don’t get decimals, but that’s still a bad example.
“I was just in a fast food restaurant and my meal was $7.65. I gave the cashier a $10 bill. She accidentally put $20 into the cash register.
She realized her mistake. But then suddenly she whipped out her iPhone out of her back pocket- which has the calculator on it- and put in $10 minus the $7.65 to realize that she only owned me $2.35- and NOT the $12.35 the cashier was telling her to give me.
I stood there stunned.”
I am more stunned that you used actual money!!!! i swear that paper money so so 90’s and is played out now.
but really I have “point/miles OCD” and am always on top of which plastic will get me the best.
so cc’ers which would you rather have?
a 500k house with 14k taxes (monthly payment $3850)
or a 800k house with 6k taxes (monthly payment $4794)
“to be much more worldly”
Agree to an extent. Although OC beached blonde ain’t exactly worldly beyond their Starbucks
accepting of things,? Ha, go on Huff Po and say “I like corporations” see where the venom will come from.
and not so concerned/anal about every little penny or concerned about how much is their house worth.”
No, they are too focused on asking what car you drive and what you do for a living.
so cc’ers which would you rather have?
a 500k house with 14k taxes (monthly payment $3850)
or a 800k house with 6k taxes (monthly payment $4794)
to answer my own question since it seems lost in the other discussions.
I will choose the 800k house as soon taxes will close that $ void and eventually you will pay off the house but taxes are FOREVER!
Groove the 500K vs 800K debate is an interesting one however it needs more detail. If they were on the same block and you intend to stay for 20+ years then my choice is quite simple. I’d go really big and stretch those dollars to make it work. The downside is that the taxes would “catch up” to the other cheaper home down the block.
If it was not the case then the hood has to be reviewed carefully before making the decision. Low taxes might be a loss leader that gets you to make a bad decision.
“Groove the 500K vs 800K debate is an interesting one however it needs more detail.”
true more detail would be needed but this is an imangiary senrio, but even in the imaginary they both cant be on the same block or neighborhood due to the major flaw is if its the same block why is the tax assessed higher for the cheaper house.
my point was just to show taxes are not going down and most likely will rise rapidly over the next 10 years. which is a factor underplayed/reviewed in home owning.
dollar per dollar basis inflation adjusted prop taxes are way higher if i where to buy a second house now to when my parents bought their second house 25 years ago or even compared to thier third house.
@anon (tfo):
Um, Prop 13? There isnt *anyone* anywhere in Cali paying $14k in prop taxes on a house they paid $814k
First, as I said, it wouldn’t be an 814K house.
Second, I pay two property tax installments of $5,710 each every year, so don’t tell me what Prop 13 does and doesn’t do.
“my point was just to show taxes are not going down and most likely will rise rapidly over the next 10 years. which is a factor underplayed/reviewed in home owning.”
Yep. It seems that the property taxes on most homes in Cook County have doubled in the last 5-10 years. It will be interesting to see if that trend continues…I think it will.
Of course taxes will increase and home prices will decrease by an equal amouunt
Well if taxes double in the next 5-10 years again, this house could have a tax bill of $25,000 to $30,000 per year.
Reality check is that people can not afford a doubling of property taxes. Our elected officials must learn a few simple messages
1. Scale down government. We can only afford so much.
2. Reduce spending levels and start paying down old debt.
3. Get more value out of existing departments, programs, and services.
Raising the property taxes, adding new user fees, and adjusting existing rates on sales tax or businesses are inevitable however there are limits on what can be absorbed by the market before creating severe economic damage.
If we had excellent services and programs people would pay more however most are poor and underfunded at best.
well said jp.
Or just tax the rich!
yes like that is going to happen. It is always the middle class that gets screwed.
“Well if taxes double in the next 5-10 years again, this house could have a tax bill of $25,000 to $30,000 per year.”
Look for taxes to increase with a rate commensurate with real estate declines. The government will take what it thinks it can. Remember this is a one party Democrat county, so don’t look for government to be checked with it’s empire building.
I have zero sympathy for people that complain about taxes but don’t vote Republican.
Giving up on the political process should be commensurate with giving up complaining.
They already do Homedelete…….I assure – you they already do!
Perhaps closing loopholes and setting minimum tax amounts for ALL income levels and corporations would make things more consistent. it bugs me that 50% of US citizens pay effectively ZERO federal income taxes into the system. Some even get rebated money back. For the most part that is ridiculous.
“Perhaps closing loopholes and setting minimum tax amounts for ALL income levels and corporations would make things more consistent.”
The system was intended to boost monetary receipts to the government, yet it was perverted by those who wish to engineer society. I’m for everyone trying to shirk their responsibility when it comes to paying taxes.
At least on a federal level, tax cuts were extended under Obama. How long do we have to wait for the trickle down effect on the economy?
“I have zero sympathy for people that complain about taxes but don’t vote Republican.”
“How long do we have to wait for the trickle down effect on the economy?”
You can whistle dixie all day. The government should’ve never used the tax code as a vehicle for social engineering. The entire system is utterly contemptible and unjust.
So long as they keep teaching that a progressive taxation scheme is “good” in macro-econ college courses as a matter of fact, I’ll continue to root for the end of that system.
I don’t care if my personal share of taxes needs to go up to replace it with a more equitable system as I believe voting one-self’s financial/economic interests over moral ones to be a harbinger for the end of the republic.
Julianna – How long do I as a business owner have to wait to determine the true “full cost” of hiring an additional employee? I have added one each of the last three calendar years but find myself quite concerned over the uncertainty over Obamacare, taxes, and other soft costs associated with business ownership. In addition there is real aggression directed from the white house because of our household income.
The confusion and uncertainty is holding me back from adding another employee this fall. That employee would be an actuall W2 employee that would earn between 38K to 42K to start. I wonder how many others share my same concerns.
Note to elected officials – Get out of the way and let the market create more jobs. Taxation, over regulation. and added costs are not the answers.
There are many residents in Park Ridge and other semi affluent suburbs that are in jeoprady of losing their homes. Many are likely small business owners. Keep ratcheting the pressure up on those business owners and watch the continued slide of RE values.
JP3- if you’re really worried about government regulations and hiring- then you don’t have enough business to hire. I know plenty of small businesses hiring right now because they have to. They have plenty of business. They don’t even THINK about Obamacare, regulations etc. etc. If they did- they’d be missing out on a great opportunity for growth and expansion. They need bodies- so they bring them in. Do you think Groupon is sitting there going, “gee- I wonder how Obamacare will affect us?”
Um…no.
Don’t let the fear paralyze you. I don’t understand the “uncertainty” over Obamacare anyway. The legislation has been passed. You already know what it is. As a business owner- you should already know how it’s going to affect you in 2014.
Again- if you have the business right now- you’re not waiting to see what will happen over 2 years from now. You’re hiring that person right now.
If I run a small pizza joint- am I concerned the government’s going to “regulate” me? Um…no. Ditto for that nail salon. Ditto for that web company. I used to live in Silicon Valley. I never once heard an entreprenuer there say, “gosh- if only the government wouldn’t regulate us so much. Then I’d hire people.”
My aunt runs a small business in Wisconsin. She is going under. Not from overregulation (she is too small to have Obamacare impact her)- but because there is simply NO business. It hasn’t come back in her industry from the bust. Simple as that. Cutting the corporate tax rate is irrelevant to most small business owners. They hardly pay any taxes anyway (and I’m talking about those who have 5 or fewer employees.) Most small businesses have good accountants. The tax rates aren’t an issue.
IMO, the tax structure should be supportive of small businesses like yours. Obamacare is a gift to special interests, a sellout, as is Obama. Doesn’t mean the Republicans have anything better to offer though. The gamers are the financial masters of the universe who extract wealth from our economy and offer little back to it.
“How long do I as a business owner have to wait to determine the true “full cost” of hiring an additional employee? I have added one each of the last three calendar years but find myself quite concerned over the uncertainty over Obamacare, taxes, and other soft costs associated with business ownership. In addition there is real aggression directed from the white house because of our household income.
The confusion and uncertainty is holding me back from adding another employee this fall. That employee would be an actuall W2 employee that would earn between 38K to 42K to start. I wonder how many others share my same concerns.”
“How long do we have to wait for the trickle down effect on the economy?”
Julianna- there is NO trickle down. Hasn’t anyone learned this yet? I don’t get it how people keep buying into that spin. The Bush tax cuts have been in affect since 2003. How good has the economy been in that time? We had higher tax rates under Ronald Reagan and a better economy coming out of the early 1980s recession.
But Tiffany’s, Prada and Saks Fifth Avenue are doing mighty fine.
“But Tiffany’s, Prada and Saks Fifth Avenue are doing mighty fine.”
Finally some one who gets this! I used my stimulus to buy a clutch by an Italian brand. I am sure that created jobs in manufacturing in Midwest!
“Do you think Groupon is sitting there going, “gee- I wonder how Obamacare will affect us?”
Ahh Groupon Chicago’s great hope. Their business model I think is about as sustainable as the (now defunct) dot-com who paid me to enter my class notes online ten years ago. I was laughing all the way to the bank.
Once Groupon’s VC and IPO money goes out the door after hemorrhaging cash they won’t be the media darlings, nor likely hiring many. I’m taking advantage of the market’s exuberance from Groupon via some of their loss-leading headline grabbing deals though.
“Once Groupon’s VC and IPO money goes out the door after hemorrhaging cash they won’t be the media darlings, nor likely hiring many.”
Bob- there are something like 30 similar Groupon companies also located in Chicago. Chicago has now become the coupon social media headquarters (including established companies moving their headquarters here). Apparently- we now have the “talent” for that area of internet social media so it makes sense that all the companies would operate from here. So if Groupon isn’t hiring- some of the others will. You’re underestimating the size of the social media landscape that is now in Chicago. No one knows how to put together “deals” better than midwesterners, apparently.
Or how about this young start-up that was featured in the Tribune today called Red Frog? Maybe they won’t be able to continue to offer these kind of work benefits for forever but no one appears to be complaining about Obamacare in the article.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/feed/ct-biz-0619-confidential-races-20110619,0,2085657.column
trickle it up, tricle it down, will make no difference. Remember those Bush stimulous payments that went to everyone. Guess where they all eventually wind up. Always have, always will. It’s the talented vs the untalented. Money shifts one way with a giant sucking sound.
It’s like people who worked hard and saved dilligently their whole life are demonized by those who haven’t produced shit.
My SO has a 1099 side job on top of her regular employment. So let’s say she earns a dollar. Of that $1.00, 28 cents goes to the federal government for income tax; 15 cents goes to the federal government for the self-employment tax and 5 cents goes to the state for income tax. 48 Cents of every dollar goes to the government. Add in real estate taxes (if and when we ever decide to buy in this ridiculous market), local & state sales taxes (10%) and excise taxes (beer, eating out, soda/water tax) and conceivably 60 to 70 cents of every dollar earned by my SO on her 1099 side job goes to the government to pay for foreign wars, pensions, income redistribution and interest on the national debt.
It almost makes it not worth it except that the 1099’s pay for the MCLE’s (mandatory continuing legal education) but that’s about it.
It’s a lot easier to save your whole life when your household income is $150,000 a year than when you attend a crappy CPS high school and the only job you can find pays you $15.00 an hour, and that $15.00 is considered a decent wage in many areas. I’m not saying it’s fair but don’t think paying someone $15.00 an hour and then keeping the profit off that $15.00 is working hard and saving diligently!
“It’s like people who worked hard and saved dilligently their whole life are demonized by those who haven’t produced shit.”
Where did the one time stimulus (in effect even lower tax rate) end up? More of it went to paying off debt or into savings than got spent. What’s the point? How does that demonstrate that higher tax rates don’t work? Your simplistic “untalented vs. talented” makes no account of the talented vampire squids of the world that set up the rest of us up for failure.
“trickle it up, tricle it down, will make no difference. Remember those Bush stimulous payments that went to everyone. Guess where they all eventually wind up. Always have, always will. It’s the talented vs the untalented. Money shifts one way with a giant sucking sound.
It’s like people who worked hard and saved dilligently their whole life are demonized by those who haven’t produced shit.”
“It’s a lot easier to save your whole life when your household income is $150,000 a year than when you attend a crappy CPS high school and the only job you can find pays you $15.00 an hour, and that $15.00 is considered a decent wage in many areas. I’m not saying it’s fair but don’t think paying someone $15.00 an hour and then keeping the profit off that $15.00 is working hard and saving diligently!
“It’s like people who worked hard and saved dilligently their whole life are demonized by those who haven’t produced shit.””
BINGO hD,
easier to save when the hand dealt comes with *extra cards to start!!!
Sabrinas top three foolish comments of the day
#1 – “then you don’t have enough business to hire”
It is a bit presumptuopus that you are telling me how to spend MY money or how many employees it takes to run MY company. That is a strong opinion from someone who does not even know a thing about my business. You now sound like most politicians.
Here is a pure cold easily documented fact. Every time I add another employee I am out of pocket for those added costs for at least 9 months. Translation I do not make money on that individual at all for almost a year. This means that my personal income suffers by hiring the additional employee.
If I choose to add an additional discretionary employee this fall the potential return will not add any benefit until AT LEAST the summer 2012. If the government adds additional taxes or soft costs during that time then it will just extend the time needed to break even or get back to my prior income level before I created that new employee that is helping our economy. It is the classic tale of risk vs. reward. I need to make choices about investing my money. The only difference from your opinionated explanation is that I have continued to expand my employee count in each of the last four years. I did this each time well BEFORE I needed to add employees. This means that I have been betting on the future and not waiting until there is “enough business to support” that individual as your idea suggested. Your words are an example of a business that has not invested in future growth and is now trying to play catch up.
My income has stayed level for three years despite growing double digits in 2008, 2009, and 2010. This year my business is tracking to be up 5%. I have chosen to continue to invest back that incremental money and add jobs. Had my income been going down I might not have chosen to add jobs. As you know this year that additional state income tax will eat up at least 6K of discretionary money. Add to that a looming new federal bite that could easily threaten another 15K and you see why this year I might hesitate adding another employee that, with taxes and soft cost will cost me over 50K per year. Are you starting to get it yet?
I can not speak for the economy in general but I can assure you that trickle down does work in some cases. Raising the tax rates and adding cost by over regulation or social engineering legislation DOES KILL JOBS. Sit back and use any example that you like but I assure you that reducing my income will have a negative effect on job growth in my business and that I am not alone in this real world example.
#2 Sabrina on Obamacare –
“The legislation has been passed. You already know what it is”
Ask 100 business owners the impact that Obamacare will have on their businesses over the next 5 years and I’d bet that you will get at minimum 70 different responses. Most owners will tell you that they are not clear on the true costs. We are too busy running our businesses and do not have time to read or interpet the legislation ourselves. Ask 100 politicians that same question and it will be even more unclear. No one really understands the true impact yet and considering the current political climate it will likely change again before implemented in 2014.
This means that we rely on accountants and lawyers who often have multiple interpetations on the subject. The only thing that will actually sort it out is time.
Sabrina foolish statement #3 – “Again- if you have the business right now- you’re not waiting to see what will happen over 2 years from now. You’re hiring that person right now.”
Perhaps your statement seems a bit short sighted now after reading my answer. That comment about “if you have the business right now” attitude is a direct result of…..drum roll please……..BUSINESSES THAT HAVE DELAYED OR WAITED TO HIRE UNTIL ABSOLUTELY NECESSECARY. I wonder why that might have happened. Let’s see, could it have been the uncertainty of sustaining profits for the business in this time of unusual taxation chages, increasing regulation, and the leadership that is coming out of Srpingfield and Washington who seem to be directing every new cost right at business owners? Naaaaa that does not make any sense.
That is not my sitaution as I have grown and there any many other businesses that have continued to grow over the last 5 years. Groupon and other similar companies were a foolish example. Watch out for that bubble to burst on that market. There is no barrier to entry and a belief that anyone with a catchy name can start one so there will be thousands of “me-too” businesses continuing to flood the market across the globe. The downfall is that the businesses that are actually giving the deals can not survive on the massive discounts and will eventually see it for what it is. Giving away massive discounts on product or service to customers that are extremely elastic and price sensitive is a poor business model. The electronic coupon thing will always have a niche but, in the end, those promotions are not really creating loyalty or building long term profits for the companies giving the deal. Therefore that business model is as short sighted as your comments about my business.
Tax rates should be targeted for job creation. Small businesses like yourself should get the tax breaks; multinationals that outsource should not. Regulation should be targeted on how to level the playing field for small business.
If Obama had come through with a public option, our overall health care expense would have been reduced and small businesses would have seen a huge benefit. A public option that reduces cost would mean a lot of changes in the provider system, with nurse practitioners in community clinics, for example, taking some of the stress of hospital emergency rooms.
“I can not speak for the economy in general but I can assure you that trickle down does work in some cases. Raising the tax rates and adding cost by over regulation or social engineering legislation DOES KILL JOBS. Sit back and use any example that you like but I assure you that reducing my income will have a negative effect on job growth in my business and that I am not alone in this real world example.”
A couple of comments in response to the above.
Companies have been taking advantage of their employees the past 2-3 years and blaming it on the economy. The typical 45-50 hour week has now been replaced by the 55-65 hour week for many people I know, who are professionals in the 27-35 year old segment (many of them with master’s degrees). There has not been any incremental pay for that increased amount of work either, so the boss is the one making money off their employees here, because they hired fewer individuals. In the past year, people have been leaving their jobs in droves, only to jump ship to another company that just does the same thing to them. In addition, the same person who as a VP earned $100K base and $20K bonus in 2005, now will get $90K base and $10K bonus today, but also perform 20% more work at the same time. These are the potential homebuyers of these $500K houses. Work more for less.
I do agree that no one understands the effects of the healthcare legislation. It was rushed through to pass, and will probably end up causing major headaches for companies and employees and cost trillions to fix. I just think that everyone should have a co-pay regardless of income – maybe make it $2 for the poorest people, but at least that will help save some money over the long haul.
Returning to this property, it now seems to be under contract.
One more comment on the taxes in the Park Ridge area – they will only go up unless there is major change for the teachers’ and administrators’ retirement packages. Raise the retirement age for these people by 3 to 4 years (to what is more common in the private sector), and that will temper any property tax increases that would be necessary in 2012-2015, so that they won’t double again in less than 10 years.
“There has not been any incremental pay for that increased amount of work either, so the boss is the one making money off their employees here, because they hired fewer individuals.”
Dave M,
True story and I agree that this has happened all over in many businesses. Part of that is that companies are not growing and margins are being pummeled from all sides. Commodities costs have risen in the production department, health care premiums and other HR costs have increased dramatically, and competition is fierce. In a growing market companies could get by on their organic market growth. Now in most industries it is a market share grab. This makes companies less profitable and as a result they hire less and get more production out of fewer employees.
Things were out of whack a few years back. The problem is that people got used to earning that level of pay. Nothing is guaranteed in life and now salaries are drifting back to reality. The saying that “I used to make XXX per year” means nothing today. Whatever the market will reward you is what you are worth. If it is not enough to satisfy your needs then you need to find a way (hopefully legally) to add more value to the marketplace. Then, and only then, will you be rewarded.
Look at all the examples of this on Crib Chatter. The market (aka buyers) are still rewarding some select properties that are in great areas and were well constructed even in this dying market.
ALso – the bosses are not always making more money off of their employees by working them harder. This may be a way for the company just to stay even in a difficult enviornment. See Sabrinas post about her aunts company above.
If the “boss is holding you back” and they are “making all the money” theory has you down in the dumps then I would suggest that it is now time for individuals to take some risk and open a business.
Not all those businesses will succeed but it would give the average individual a better insight into risk vs. reward and/or value vs. cost. Those individuals would be better employees after a year of real world business owner education.
The same could be said for the owners of businesses – they got used to earning what they were making from 2004 to 2007, and now the only way to get close to that is to work their employees more. Many of these long-term loyal employees reached a breaking point, and quit/changed careers in the past 2 years due to the increased workload expectations and no new hires being added. It is very short-term thinking, and not entirely due to the tax code, or the new health care legislation. Employers did have more competition, but they could easily blame the increased workload on the economy in 2009 and early 2010, but now in 2011, employees don’t believe that any more. This results in increased turnover that is not good for the long-term health of companies, especially small to medium sized businesses.
My points were more related to the service side, where commodity costs don’t come into play that much.
Lots of turnover can be a good thing for certain companies too, as you really find out who likes working there and is loyal.
Dave – you are money on that statement! Many owners are just as greedy as the workers and will do things that are short term gain vs. long term strategy. If they made the moves to keep the company profitable they should be able to show this to their employees. If not they will likely leave in seeking the greener grass. In the end both loose.
I have a philosophy of hire, train, and retain the best. So far my employees have been extremely loyal. I had to fire a few but no one has left because the grass was greener. They are well paid, appreciated, although we push hard to reach our goals. I am also completely transparent. All my employees see our financials every month. This keeps them from resenting things or coming to false conclusions about our financial health.
I know plenty of mortgage brokers, realtors, tradesmen and contractors who made LOTS of money during the boom, so much so that we as attorneys used to routinely joke that we were in the wrong profession. I specifically remember seeing a commercial mortgage broker’s w-2 in 2004 and she made over $150,000 and she in her late 20’s. I doubt she’s making that today.
this place is under contract
I know lots of government and union employees that are making lots of money during this boom too
guess i’m in the wrong profession eh HD?
There is a definite cribchatter effect to some properties.
“marco on June 20th, 2011 at 2:08 pm
this place is under contract”
Good to hear that it has finally gone under contract. As I stated earlier in this thread I think that Craig Tinder is an excellent realtor!
“There is a definite cribchatter effect to some properties.”
I hope one of you guys bought this house (or a reader who just lurks and never posts comments.) Let us know after it closes!
“I specifically remember seeing a commercial mortgage broker’s w-2 in 2004 and she made over $150,000 and she in her late 20’s. I doubt she’s making that today.”
I know one too who made six figures. Since descended into alcoholism and near homelessness but finally got over feeling sorry for himself and is happy to have a more normal income of 60k (given his lack of formal education) selling other stuff.
Sold on 08/01/2011
$460,000
Can’t believe i missed this one!
I’ve been following the trend of this place for the past few years its been on the market.
Park Ridge has great schools and this property is in a suburb location of Park Ridge but beyond that you get nothing for your tax $ in Park Ridge. The park district sucks, the town has all kinds of flooding, electricity goes out if the wind blows wrong…
Aside from the $14K in taxes…someone got a great deal on this place at 460
By the way, ANYTHING can sell when the price is low enough. This to me seems bottom so Im not surprised it Sold.