Want Space? 3500 N. Lake Shore Drive Has it In Spades
3500 N. Lake Shore Drive is a pre-war co-op in Lakeview with views of the lake.
The units are enormous but some of them need some TLC.
Are you up for it?
If you are, you can get 3500 square feet for $315,000 complete with butler pantry and maid’s quarters. (Sorry- no pictures of the kitchen or baths.)
Unit #2C: 4 bedrooms, 3 baths, 3500 square feet
- I couldn’t find an original price
- Currently listed for $315,000
- Window air-conditioning units
- Assessments of $2356 a month (includes the taxes)
- Keller Williams Lincoln Park has the listing
Washer/dryers are allowed in the units. Parking is rental.
If you don’t want to renovate, those units are available as well. Remember Unit #8C? I chattered about it in December 2007.
Unit #8C: 4 bedrooms, 3 baths, 3000 square feet
- Sold in July 1999 for $450,000
- Sold in March 2004 for $910,000
- Was listed in December 2007 at $950,000
- Assessment of $2,529 a month (doesn’t include property taxes)
- Washer/Dryer in-unit
- Central zoned air conditioning
- Harbor views
- Listing said unit recently renovated
Unit #8C sold in February 2008 for $915,000.
Interestingly, Unit #4A appears to be going into foreclosure. Foreclosure auction price of $344,570. I couldn’t find an original price on the unit.
The building requires at least 80% financing as it’s a co-op. But what happens when someone can’t pay their mortgage in a co-op?
Any real estate attorneys out there?
I’m thinking it’s not a pretty thing for the other owners.
Why are the assessments so high?
Who needs coffee to wake up in the morning when you have an assessment bill over $2000 a month to have to worry about. Why does one “include taxes” and the other does not? I am not familiar with co-ops, but is the board responsible for overseeing the payment of taxes for the entire building, or is it payed directly by individual owners in similar fashion to the way you would as a condominium owner?
I believe this is a co-op and all monthly assessments include the property taxes. I think some listings strip out the taxes from the assessments on the listing, to make them look lower. Of course, they list the property taxes too, so buyers can add it up themselves. Maybe it is psychological? Lower looking assessments?
JUST MY OPINION- NOT FAMILIAR WITH PARTICULAR BUILDING, BOARD, OR LISTING. (can never be too careful these days…)
Why is a $2400/month assesment a big deal? If you back out the real estate taxes of say $700/month, the balance goes towards the building upkeep, staff and reserve. $1700/month is the cost of living in a near landmark status building on Lakeshore Drive. In addition, the price is about $90/SF!
IF you buy it for $300K, put $60K down, your mortgage is say $1400/month plus assesment/taxes of $2400/month. $3800/month to live in 3500 SF (huge! and no stairs to cut up the space!) on LSD with a staff and doorman. Sounds like a bargain!
What does it cost to live in 3500 SF in Bucktown, Lincoln Park, even the West or South Loop? (with no lake views or easy access?)
A co-op buyer “owns” a proprietary lease that grants occupancy of a specific unit. That’s the collateral that the bank takes back. The lease spells out the result of non-payment of assessments and it leads to eviction. The bank has to pay or their “lease” will be worthless. There is also the risk inherent with board approval of buyers. That is why financing can be difficult and costly.
Assessments of $2356 a month (includes the taxes)
—
COME ON!!!!!!
Unit 2C doesn’t seem like a bad deal. Unit 8C is nowhere near competitive (yet it sold).
I think this building is odd in that as nice as the interiors are the exterior is quite ugly.
The simplest way to look at it that the assessment in a co-op can be broken into 3 parts: property taxes, debt service for building (co-op corp) and the remainder (which is comparable to a condo assmt, adjusted for inclusives.)
The largest variable is the debt service, especially given that the refi and HELOC doors WERE wide open to co-ops. That means they have a lot of ARM time-bombs that are due to go off, just like homewowners. In any event, a price comparison of any co-op should be looked at as the total of the unit price from seller plus the % share of the underlying co-op debt. Do not forget to consider the co-op debt terms (ask yourself, would you borrow that % of your purchase in a similar fashion?), risks of board approval of purchaser (not always the case) and higher down payment and interest rates. Therefore, there should be a substantial discount from a comparable condo unit.
Co-Ops are nothing but trouble.
You people acting shocked, shocked! about high assessments accompanying a very low selling price in a CO-OP BUILDING are really showing yourselves to be real estate n00bs…
Normally, high assessments are a deal killer for me–but come on, this is 3500 square feet, and it includes the taxes. Clean up those floors and throw $50K or so into the kitchen and baths–and is that a wood burning fireplace I see? (heart thumping)
I think this place is pretty awesome…
It would be fun to redo the floors. LOTS of work though.
These are absolutely beautiful apartments for an affluent person. Look at the ceiling vaulting in the entry foyer. I have always loved this building and wished I could afford one of these, even though they are pretty over-the-top for a single occupant.
The assessments look high, but consider you are getting a very high level of service, plus taxes, and heat, for a very large apartment, included. This building has a large staff, and almost everything is done for you.
Face it, this is not a middle-class building, even though the units seem cheap. This $315K co-op would probably be priced at twice as much were it a condominium.
This was once upon a time an all-cash building. 80% down seems steep, and it used to be a real strike against condos. However, in light of the credit debacle we are going through, which owes mostly to EZ credit extended to unqualified buyers, it might be a plus these days, because one of the byblows of the bubble bursting is a large number of condo associations being stuck with tens of thousands of dollars in unpaid assessments owed by buyers in foreclosure, who will most likely never make good, as they could likely never really afford their units to begin with.
Thanks to the rules of this building, which also subjects buyers to board approval and requires proof of solvency and the ability to carry your weight financially, there is little chance that you and other owners will be absorbing a huge wad of unpaid assessments, that will never be paid because the owner was foreclosed. Other buildings, such as 3750 N Lakeshore and 3850 N Lakeshore, also qualify prospective buyers carefully to make sure that prospective buyers are financially capable of carrying the load of these places.
Yes 2356 assessments is a BIG deal, unlike fixed rate mortgages (remember those?) assessments can and will rise. What if its 6k in 5 years. With inflation and gas prices the way it is, expect assessments to spike up. These coops are not meant for average joe’s.
one of these co-op buildings (3400-3800 N LSD) has a almost-olympic-sized? indoor pool. that would be worth the assessments for me.
but ya, for most people the financial aspects/oversight of co-op board is probably too much of a distraction.
3750 has the pool, which is not quite Olympic-sized but is very beautiful.
It also has the worst assessments for the amount of space, owing to having 11 elevator tiers and having TWO entrances that both require doormen. The pool is not nearly as much a drain as all those elevators and all those doormen.
Just be sure you know what you’re getting for your assessment money.
“G”, you bring up a very important point. I never for the life of me imagined that one of these stable old co-ops would have ARM loans and HELOCS, but after what happened with the Edgewater Beach a few years ago, nothing should surprise us.
Sabrina, speaking of the Edgewater Beach, do you have any info on the city, state, and federal aid package that was put together for this building? I have been trolling the net like a nut searching, and don’t know where to start at city hall, so if you know anything more about the massive repair job at that building, than what I was told in a city condo buyer’s class, then I’d be grateful
What we were told is that this building had about 40 years’ of deferred maintenance come due around 2000, when the place was threatening to shed chunks of stucco. The re-stuccoing, repairs to the indoor pool,and garage repairs added up to $120MM, which the residents were unable to pay, and the building was able to obtain state, city, and federal grants, based on the building’s status as a registered landmark, to help out. I searched for documentation of all this and can’t find it.
“Thanks to the rules of this building, which also subjects buyers to board approval and requires proof of solvency and the ability to carry your weight financially, there is little chance that you and other owners will be absorbing a huge wad of unpaid assessments, that will never be paid because the owner was foreclosed.”
Laura, thanks to what you describe, there is little chance that the owners will have to breathe the putrid air of those deemed financially inferior. There is almost no chance of eating a lot of assessments in ANY co-op (regardless of approval process) due to foreclosure unless the proprietary lease (what a buyer will pay) is worth less than the outstanding assessment. The bank has to pay. Otherwise, the co-op just evicts them for non-payment (yes, you are a tenant in a co-op), sells their shares along with the proprietary lease to someone else and the bank’s collateral disappears. Even if the lease is worthless they will still evict in order to get someone in who might at least pay the assmt (or even pay rent to the assn.) We might witness this in some south side co-ops before the current carnage is over.
Many co-ops will be back to cash only buyers because of the returning lending standards. Condos are looking risky to banks, so co-ops will be blacklisted. Thus, the deals for co-ops will only get better for cash buyers, which explains how they sometimes are the right choice for certain buyers (as opposed to how they don’t seem to compare in bubbly times.)
G, the air can get pretty putrid when your building has a large number of foreclosures pending.
I looked at a vintage condo up north, where the foreclosed previous owner owed $14,000 in unpaid assessments. The bank had dropped the price of the apt to offset the assessments, which would be payable by the new buyer. Now, this was at the peak of the boom, and they might not be able to unload them on a buyer now.
However, many condo associations have been unsuccessful in collecting assessments due on foreclosed units, oftentimes because the lenders, now clogged with NODs and LIS Pendens, are so slow to foreclose that the assessments can really stack up. This is a really big problem in less expensive buildings- I know of a couple of small (3-6 unit) associations who are trying to get units into foreclosure that have a year’s worth of unpaid assessments on them. They can’t collect until they get the place foreclosed. In the meantime, these moderate-income owners are carrying the weight of the assessments due on these apts, which is a massive burden for non-rich owners in a small association.
This is why it is important, if you are a non-affluent condo or co-op owner, to make sure your association is just as careful about vetting prospective buyers for financial fitness as any snotty high-end building, because too many pending foreclosures with too many unpaid assessments can hit you very hard.
A 3-6 unit HOA? Sounds like all the pain and hassle associated with being a landlord without the revenue stream. Ouch.
Has this unit already been pulled off the mls? For the life of me I can’t find the listing.
Laura,
There is a large difference between condos and co-ops as far as unpaid assessments go. The bank can’t refuse to pay assessments for a co-op because the co-op can evict them and cancel the proprietary lease. That leaves the bank with nothing but a bad debt for the entire mortgage amount. As you correctly point out, banks can play games with condo assessments, because they will only end up with a lien that has to be paid when the condo is sold. The collateral cannot be taken away from the bank with a condo. It can disappear for a co-op. It is a huge difference.
Condos cannot vet prospective buyers for financial fitness like co-ops. They have no say at all in who you sell to (except for some age-restrictive assns.)
Condos and co-ops are completely different ownership types with few similarities. Sorry if it sounds like nitpicking from me, but you appear to be interchanging the terms in an incorrect manner.
#2-C was listed 4/24/08 and has a contingent offer on 4/30/08.
Must have had something to do with the agent’s remarks: “THE CRUISE IS FOR 2 PEOPLE FOR 5 DAYS AND 4 NIGHTS TO YOUR CHOICE OF THE BAHAMAS, MEXICO OR THE WESTERN CARIBBEAN!!**”
I don’t know if that was for the buyer of the unit or the selling agent.
The elitist in me loves the idea of living in a building with nothing but neighbors who have to be approved by a board before they can buy. (I keep picturing the sex and the city episode where Miranda and her co-op board interview the doctor who becomes her new love interest. Although I guess then you also have to deal with crabby old ladies complaining about the noise or gentleman callers coming and going at all hours.) Plus the spaces in these LSD buildings are always amazing and unlike anything else in Chicago.
My main concern with all the co-op listings I’ve ever seen is how do you ever get any substantial appreciation out of it compared to a traditional condo or home? Do co-op buyers just accept that they won’t get big capital gains because they’re more interested in living with a bunch of people who can all afford to throw away a grand or two a month on assessments, or is it possible to have strong appreciation? It just seems much harder to do comps if you’re looking for a beautiful space to rehab and you’re wondering what you’ll be able to sell it for four or five years later.
G, I know they are different ownership types, and I much prefer the condo type of ownership, because there seems to be more transparency with condos.
However, I thought condos could put some restrictions in their bylaws. I know they can make their buildings owner-occupied only. I also thought they could require that you prove that you can afford the assessments.
Co-ops can be much more restrictive than that- they can “blackball” you because they don’t LIKE you, or because you don’t come from the type of social background they prefer, or some such nonsense.
One of the things I intend to do when I buy is take classes on condo and co-op governance. Most condo and co-op owners are much too passive, and don’t realize that they have a major problem, such as massive deferred maintainence, or financial problems, until they are deep in the stew, because they don’t take part, and in their default, the board has failed to protect them adeqautely.
Does anyone know what’s wrong with the building at 1211 n. lasalle? (or at least what it’s shortcomings are, e.g., no parking, no in-unit laundries?) There are always some cheap units for sale there and the assessments seem very low. Just checking the MLS I spotted unit 1703, 402, 503, 303, and 1102…all 2 beds/2 baths for ~ 260 – 285K.
Isn’t 1211 Lasalle “The Mural Building” that Sabrina chattered about not too long ago?
Yes, it is….I’ll do a search and see what she already wrote.
I’m told, though I can’t verify this, that 1211 is an old transient hotel. People I know think the rooms are too small, even though they look decent to me.
I love the place, love the decorative details and the antique feel, but I hate the way it’s sited, what with the Jewel parking lot on one side. No trees and too much concrete around. Very convenient, though.
I love this unit and have fantasized about buying it, but my boyfriend is a hideously practical CPA-type who won’t hear of it.
It was originally listed for $595K in March, 2006. I figured if we got it for $250K and paid cash i’d be able to rationalize the assessment by calling it rent. Then i’d consider the $250K a bad investment and call it a day. It really takes some mental gymnastics if you want to attempt to get one of these units to make sense.
Also, an old listing of this unit up indicated an assessment of $3,079. So if Steven Acoba of Keller Williams Lincoln Park is saying that the assessement is $2,356 including taxes, I would seriously start to question whether or not this man is a LIAR. It’s on the second floor and there really is no lake view to speak of, although Mr. Acoba touts the views of lake, park and quiet tree-lined street in the listing. In reality, you do get a direct view of dirty, noisy, smelly lake shore drive right in your face. I have friends who live in LSD buildings who literally NEVER open their windows cause it’s so dirty and noisy.
The cruise is listed as a commission is for the agent who brings a buyer.
Such awesome space……..
bubbleboi, you couldn’t economically justify this for a middle-class couple no matter how many mental acrobatics you went through. You just plain need a huge, stable income to live here, and it was really meant for people who don’t even think of resale on their houses, because their houses are such a small % of their net worth.
Sabrina, have you ever published anything about the Queen of co-ops, 2430 N Lakeview? That is the most over-the-top vintage co-op in the Midwest.
Laura: I haven’t yet written anything about 2430 N. Lakeview. I’ve only covered a handful of the co-op buildings so far (but give me time.)
Danny: There is at least one post on The Mural Building. That should give you some information. There IS parking with that building.
When I was a prosecutor in Buildings, we had a nice co-op in court for serious code violations. The conditions were dangerous and hazardous. All I remember is the massive in-fighting that ended up driving the building into the ground.
Jason, I wonder if the building you had in court is the same one I’m thinking of? There is one vintage co-op in Lincoln Park, quite beautiful, that I really don’t want to name here, because I only heard of a unit having numerous seriouus plumbing violations, and I heard it from a designer who redid a unit there. She said the place was a total mess mechanically and that there was a lot of infighting and bad blood between the resident-owners.
There’s a lot of confusion about co-ops. While assessments are higher, they include more. Property taxes are included because legal title to the co-op building(s) is held by only one entity — the co-op itself. Hence assessments include one’s proportional share of property taxes. Also, many co-ops, particularly older ones, have one common gas and electric bill so these utilities are also included in the assessment. My assessment includes property taxes, gas, electricity, and basic cable. G is right that many co-ops also carry a mortgage and the assessment includes service on this debt. Co-ops often take out a mortgage to fund capital improvements and repairs. Instead of levying a special assessment the building can take out a mortgage and include one’s proportional share of the debt service in each tenant-owner’s assessment. The advantage of this is that buildings have access to larger, commercial loans from sources not available to individual homeowners. Additionally, tenant-owners in a co-op do not have to cough up a large special assessment, which for many people would mean having to refinance their individual mortgage. Each tenant-owner may deduct from his/her income tax the proportional share of interest paid on the co-op’s mortgage.
Additionally, it is not true that co-ops do not appreciate in value. Well run co-ops do. While the price per square foot for a cooperative apartment is generally less than a comparable condominium unit, yearly appreciation as a percent of value is competitive.
Co-ops are generally more restrictive and the purchase is more complex. This may in part explain why co-ops are less favored in Chicago. One also finds that the restrictions on most co-ops favor (for example, many, including mine, have restrict using the apartment as rental property) long-term ownership so co-ops are more attractive to people looking for a home as opposed to an investment vehicle. This is one of the reasons I favor them.
As for foreclosures, again I think co-ops generally have an advantage over condominiums for at least two reasons. First, because the board reviews applicant’s finances before the purchase of the apartment, only those who can show they can afford the purchase and the assessments are permitted to buy. Second, financing on a co-op apartment generally includes a recognitions agreement between the co-op and the bank providing the tenant-owner financing. The agreement is typically highly favorable to the co-op and ensures that, in the case of default, unpaid assessments owed to the co-op take priority over the unpaid balance of the mortgage. But take a look at co-ops as compared to condominiums, particularly newer developments, and you will see far fewer foreclosures and bank sales in co-ops.
I am the listing agent for unit 2C. The current monthly assessments are $2,356/month. I am not a liar as bubbleboi on May 2 suggests. I would never lie or mislead the public just to get a listing sold.
The building over budgeted in 2007 and there was a surplus of funds in the reserves. A credit is being issued to back to each owner over a 6 month period. This will last through August of 2008. Thereafter the assesements will go to their previous amount of $3079/month.
With regard to the assessments, you all know that the assessment in a co-op is all inclusive. The only thing you pay additional is your phone and internet. If you compare this amount to other Lakeview high rises on a dollar per square foot basis for all that is included you’ll see they are not outrageous. Take for example the condos at 555 Cornelia, a high rise building just down the street. The 1 bedrooms are about 700 ft2 and the assessments are $467/month including only heat, water, common insurance, etc. Taxes and electric are not included. Those would run ~$100/month and ~$40/month respectively. So about or $607 total per month, all in. That is roughly $0.87 per square foot per month.
This co-op at 3500 LSD is 3,500 square feet, or 5 times the size of a 1BR at 555 Cornelia. With monthly assessments of ~$3,000, including taxes, electric, etc, that comes $0.88 per square foot. So if you really calculate it, you’ll see that they’re not uncommon.
I am happy to clarify or give any other information about this unit or building that you would like.
Further, the description reads “views of lake park & quiet tree-lined street.” One indeed can see the “lake park” from every room on the east side of the apartment.
Nothing misleading at all.
Just quoting an assessment that is temporary through August. Then comparing a psf expense for a 700sf unit to a 3500sf unit. Finally, only using the term “lake park” that Chicagoans hear every day.
Right, nothing misleading at all.
Yep, it’s just like a “fixed-rate” mortgage that’s fixed for 4 months and then variable. Nothing misleading about that either.
Steve – so you are telling me that if you were to list a unit that has a $500 special assessment for three months (just by way of example let’s say increasing the assessment from $1,000 to $1,500 from May through August), that you would indicate in the assessment line of your listing that the assessment is $1,500? and not bother to explain it anywhere in the listing sheet? That’s what it appears you did with this listing. But surprise surprise in your case it has the effect of making the assessment seem lower than it really is.
I just drove by and maybe the views of the harbor from the second floor are better than i thought. But i’m still confused by your use of “lake park”.
despite all this, i would hire you as an agent – you seem to be the one who got it under contract after all these years. And kudos to you for defending yourself in public!
FYI Condo’s in NYC are starting to require board approval to purchase, Chicago won’t be far behind on higher end buildings.
You rarely hear about board refusals in Chicago, but when you do, it’s usually for bankruptcy or poor finances. I grew up in a small co-op and don’t remember anybody being turned down – though someone foolish enough to say that they had a pet snake was in the 60s. We also didn’t (and still don’t) have a down payment requirement.
Just found this post. Been wondering about this building for some time. Lots of peculiarities with it in terms of the large disparity in price between similar units (even after adjusting for remodeling)and the fact that 10 out of 66 units are for sale and that it takes these units forever to sell and some of these units have had their list prices cut in half over the course of several years trying to sell them – like 2C which is back on the market. Looks like the deal fell through. In 2005 they tried selling it for $849K!
Something strange here.
The major reason these don’t sell quickly or easily… Chicago is simply NOT a co-op town. Monthly assessments of $3K-$7K are nothing to blink about in Manhattan. But in Chicago, there are always many choices for less money. Manhattan money and Chicago money are two different species altogether.
While it’s obvious the co-op fees price many would be buyers out of the market, the co-op board approval process has a lot to do with why the units do not sell as quickly. If the co-op simply does not like perspective buyers for whatever reason, they can block a perspective buyers ability to purchase in the building. Co-ops are permitted to discriminate for pretty much any reason they want.
This is often the case with many of Manhattan’s most desireable UWS co-ops like The Dakota and The Kenilworth. The Dakota could publish a coffee table book detailing all of the perspective buyers they’ve rejected. Madonna, Jean Simmons, etc etc. A new, old-world architecture condo just went up at 15 Central Park West, and the astronomical prices have a lot to do with the desireability of Central Park West / Upper West Side homes but the lack of ability of even the wealthiest buyers to get past the co-op boards.
The $300K unit with the white paint throughout is on a low floor (2C)… It’s probably considered less desireable with the street noise. The $800K remodeled unit is on a much higher floor. Probably less noisy and has a much better view. I’m not sure how this explains the $500K difference but I’m sure it accounts for part of the price differential (aside from the obvious remodel factor).
I thought all of you would appreciate knowing that my listing 2C at 3500 Lake Shore FINALLY closed on 7/30 for $293k (no other credits or kickbacks to the buyer were given). Hopefully this will be the first of the several other units in the building (in fixer upper condition) to sell.
I’m glad to have been the real estate agent to get it sold. I sold it in under 80 days for 93% of the asking price. My seller, needless to say, is thrilled. The property had been on the market for nearly 3 full years with 2 other real estate agents before I took it over.
The most common comment I had from buyers about the building was that the assessments were too high. Granted this unit is huge, at 3500 sq ft, $2800/month is a lot of money. But the unit sold for $84/ sq foot which is unheard of in Lake View. The building is actually pretty cool though and the location cannot be beat. The building has gone through an enormous amount of work – all new elevators, facade, new roof, etc. A new anwning will also be installed in the months ahead. The only other potential project they are considering is resurfacing the back service courtyard. Everything else has been done so incoming buyers can feel comfort in knowing there won’t be any special assessments in the near future.
I will be putting another unit in the building on the market in the coming days so stay tuned! Feel free to contact me if you have any other questions about the building.
Thanks for the update on that listing Steve. A lot of us are definitely interested in the vintage buildings along Lake Shore Drive- especially at these prices!
anyone has any actual info on the building itself? I am considering an apt in this building and curious to know if anyone has any idea on how the actual building is (good financials, clean, good neighbors, etc).
I know that the co-op living is different, but some of us like it, and if you dont mind paying a little more (but get a lot more space) why not. Also, there is no comparison between the 1920/30s architecture and the modern one…
Can someone help out Ray with more building info?
I so enjoy looking at floorplans for these units. Amazing, just amazing. Not your boxy condo with the kitchen, dining, and living room all in a small area, not to mention the incredible bedroom sizes here (apparently now 12 X 16 is supposed to be inpressive).
I’m a fan of the building, but I wouldn’t buy into it because
1. No matter what, the assesments are too hig (divide the tax portion by 12 and its a big bill)
2. Co-op
3. No private outdoor space, and the amenities are less than stellar.
If you can’t afford to live here, don’t bitch about it. Defaults in a coop are rare. Remember 80% cash down?
I’ve had more stressfull situations in a condo when half the building was on spec and didn’t sell or 50% were on ARMS ect. The board keeps those who don’t have the ability to pay out. It sounds very 20th century but New York has been doing it for over ahundred years.